Cocu in or out?

[angieram]

4 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

He is not setting up his teams to lose though, the teams are set up to win a game by restricting the opponent in scoring. Surely you wouldn’t want the team to go so gung ho, given that we haven’t got any creative players in the team, that just wouldn’t make sense imo.

Of course we need to score goals, but he is trying to make us hard to beat, I suspect that if people can’t see this then maybe the best thing is to get rid of him as he isn’t going to change his style any time soon.

Please don't be so patronising; of course I know this is what he is trying to do but it isn't working particularly well at home and it isn't working at all away from home. 

I was making the point that if he isn't under any pressure to win games he might as well go for it as he has nothing to lose other than boring us all to death in the process of finding the perfect defensive performance. If that's all we needed, we should have kept Rowett. He was better at it! 

[RamNut]

I'm sure he's a lovely bloke. Lovely wife. Nice dog. posh crockery. Expensive carpets. Big car. Sophisticated dinner parties. Burt Bacharach music playing in the background. Original artworks lining the walls. The sort of chap who can get away with wearing white trousers. He could probably talk about wine without sounding pretentious. His curtains probably make a lovely swishing sound as they effortlessly glide across the beautifully proportioned windows of his elegant home. His laughter is genuine, friendly and warm. Old people feel ten years younger when he talks to them. So much to admire really.

he just can't seem to pick a frickin team.

[Loftyhites]

I don’t believe it matters if this is a transition season or if Cocu has an amazing long-term plan for the academy players. I do believe that if attendances start to head to that 25,000 mark, then Mel’s trigger finger will get itchy - regardless of any plan. The Rooney factor will ensure that attendances will be positive for a while so Cocu will be OK in his employment for now. I feel that this time next year, will be the point of decision for Mel. Cocu’s future could rely on the fitness of Rooney as an influential effect on the paying customer until the summer - in my opinion.

[therealhantsram]

21 minutes ago, JfR said:

Just in league games missed through injury, it was: 3W, 4D, 4L, 13 points from a possible 33, against teams ranked, at the time of playing: 8th, 9th, 13th, 13th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 19th, 19th, 20th and 24th. That includes 7 home games and 4 away games. That form, if carried throughout a full season, would have got us around 54 points and seen us finish 16th last season, but I think even that is misrepresentative of how poor we were as we only faced two teams in the top half of the table, none of the top 6, and were better at home than away. Over an actual season, we would likely have been worse. By comparison, if we maintain the same points per game standard we have shown so far this season across the entire season, we will finish with around 58 points.

Edit: Oh, and we scored 9 goals across those 11 games, conceded 13, and failed to score in 6 of them

Thanks. That's kinda what my gut feel was. But I didn't realise how many bottom half teams we played in that sequence. 

Worth repeating those stats to everyone who thinks Cocu should be fired. 

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, angieram said:

But if he would just go back to playing Martin and Marriott together up top with Lawrence in behind I would be a lot happier than I am watching any one of our forwards toiling alone in that central role with no-one near them.

Let's try and play some attractive football. 

I strongly agree that those three would be our best option this year. However, I do think he's thinking more about next year than this and I suspect he wants to bring in players that suit his preferred 433.

I have a friend who works for Hull City and he's fairly sure they'll be getting Marriott in January.

We're not sure about Martin's longevity and fitness.

Lawrence is better centrally than wide so I'm not sure where he will fit.

But yeah, even with all the failings of the current squad, my concern is the reports of PSV being defensive. At the moment, perhaps he can justify it on the basis that we need to pick up enough points not to look over our shoulder.

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

No Rowett ball was based upon players that he had brought in to play that style of play. Cocu is trying to stop us being so easy to beat, big difference.

We'd be harder to beat if we tried to score a goal every now and then ...

Our away performances i can only compare to the Premier League season. Billy Davies 451 hoof it to Steve Howard was more exciting. Atleast you knew we were going to get into the oppositions box.

Instead, we insist on bending over backwards waiting to concede a goal and only reacting once we've conceded. It's the worst football I've ever seen us play in the Championship and we've had much worse squads!

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

8 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I'm sure he's a lovely bloke. Lovely wife. Nice dog. posh crockery. Expensive carpets. Big car. Sophisticated dinner parties. Burt Bacharach music playing in the background. Original artworks lining the walls. The sort of chap who can get away with wearing white trousers. He could probably talk about wine without sounding pretentious. His curtains probably make a lovely swishing sound as they effortlessly glide across the beautifully proportioned windows of his elegant home. His laughter is genuine, friendly and warm. Old people feel ten years younger when he talks to them. So much to admire really.

he just can't seem to pick a frickin team.

I've just litearlly had a tea party at Cocu's house reading that ?

[AdamRam]

3 minutes ago, angieram said:

Please don't be so patronising; of course I know this is what he is trying to do but it isn't working particularly well at home and it isn't working at all away from home. 

I was making the point that if he isn't under any pressure to win games he might as well go for it as he has nothing to lose other than boring us all to death in the process of finding the perfect defensive performance. If that's all we needed, we should have kept Rowett. He was better at it! 

Patronising, behave, it’s not any different to your posts on fans behaviour at games.

He is nothing like Rowett imo, he brought in players to play a system, Cocu has been given a team after a poor recruitment window that has been decimated by injuries and has shown no fight is the majority of games way from home despite the team or formation that he has put out. 
 

With the risk of being accused of being “patronising” again, why is he under no pressure to win games ? And running that risk again, how would you therefore set up this team to be much more positive ?

[S8TY]

In ...give the man a chance FFS ...hasn’t  even had a window to change players 

[AdamRam]

7 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

We'd be harder to beat if we tried to score a goal every now and then ...

Our away performances i can only compare to the Premier League season. Billy Davies 451 hoof it to Steve Howard was more exciting. Atleast you knew we were going to get into the oppositions box.

Instead, we insist on bending over backwards waiting to concede a goal and only reacting once we've conceded. It's the worst football I've ever seen us play in the Championship and we've had much worse squads!

If disagree on the squad, I’ll admit it doesn’t look pretty on the eye though. Davies and Forsyth at the back, no wingers, no pace, no target man, no good loans, a none existent midfield. Which of these players would you take and put in Macs team for example, over Davies team or even over Rowetts ?

[BondJovi]

11 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Chrissy Wilder got a team of bog standard Championship players into the Premier League. Warnock has multiple times. Just off the top of my head I came up with those two, I'm sure there are plenty more examples too. 

Good managers get the best out of their players. Good managers don't need the excuse of the squad, they squeeze more out of them. 

A lot of what you're saying is excuses. Dealt a shocking hand? Not a good one, but not worse than too many other teams to be honest. The Rooney hype is not a valid excuse. It's a lift to the club, not a drag. 

Can you name a single player that has improved under Cocu's coaching? A single one? I can't. He's a renowned coach isn't he? Well, where's the evidence? Bogle, Waghorn and some of our better players from last season have gone backwards or just stayed as they were. 

Wilder had the team in league one. He didn't take over a team in a mess and they didn't get promoted first season back up in the championship. I agree those players are performing above and beyond expectations but he has been in that job a while.

As for Warnock, he probably would get this group of players in the play offs but we'd pay for it long term. He doesn't improve players he just knows how to get results.

Of course Rooney is a distraction, once he can play that will change but for now it is, another coach thrown into the mix.

I would say your captain injuring himself in a drink driving incident and having his contract terminated is about as bad as it can get. How has that gone down with the players? Great for dressing room harmony.

 

[Jayram]

The rumblings of discontent among some of us are not about not having a team to make the playoffs; most sensible Rams fans knew that was likely to be a non starter. For me its about the style of football, the lack of creativity and the unwillingness to stick with the one formation that seemed to have us playing decent football.

Quite frankly I think Cocu's philosophy is just another version of Rowettball - turgid defensive football relying on playing the percentages. I hated that football then and I hate it now. Five straight away defeats, our worst run in 11 years would put any other manager in danger of losing his job but because Mel saw fit to give Phil a 4 year contract I don't think there's any chance of seeing the back of him soon, so I have no doubt he will get the transfer windows the happy clappers want him to get.

On a personal level I'm doing what I always do when we have a manager playing crap football - I stop going. I've got better things to spend my hard earned cash on - I want to be entertained, to see decent football and to see us give every game a good go, win or lose. Under Cocu we are going nowhere but nor is he, so for the time being I'm out, and I wouldn't mind betting there will be a good few thousand more doing the same by the end of the season.

[AdamRam]

2 minutes ago, Jayram said:

The rumblings of discontent among some of us are not about not having a team to make the playoffs; most sensible Rams fans knew that was likely to be a non starter. For me its about the style of football, the lack of creativity and the unwillingness to stick with the one formation that seemed to have us playing decent football.

Quite frankly I think Cocu's philosophy is just another version of Rowettball - turgid defensive football relying on playing the percentages. I hated that football then and I hate it now. Five straight away defeats, our worst run in 11 years would put any other manager in danger of losing his job but because Mel saw fit to give Phil a 4 year contract I don't think there's any chance of seeing the back of him soon, so I have no doubt he will get the transfer windows the happy clappers want him to get.

On a personal level I'm doing what I always do when we have a manager playing crap football - I stop going. I've got better things to spend my hard earned cash on - I want to be entertained, to see decent football and to see us give every game a good go, win or lose. Under Cocu we are going nowhere but nor is he, so for the time being I'm out, and I wouldn't mind betting there will be a good few thousand more doing the same by the end of the season.

To be fair, wasn’t you opposed to the appointment of Lampard saying Mel had got it wrong then ?

Not saying your wrong, but it’s to early to judge for me.

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Is he getting more out of Bogle and Lowe?

No but perhaps he has sussed that they are not as good as some made them out to be ..and we need better 

[Justa]

1 hour ago, Needlesh said:

People. Grow the flip up.

Time. Patience. Transfer windows. Cannot build a team in half a window with little money and half a dozen good players leaving, especially when you get a batch in injuries in one department.

But what about getting the most out of what you have ??

He simply isn’t doing that for me...

[FlyBritishMidland]

5 hours ago, BodminRam said:

He has inherited a team with last seasons best 3 missing ( Mount Tamorri and Wilson) even with them we only just made the play offs,

Exactly this.  Take those 3 out of any Championship team and they’d find it hard going.  Those three are playing Premiership football and for their countries.  I reckon it’s at least £50M of talent - thing is they weren’t ours to sell to a Premiership club to get the money in to replace them.  And to have all 3 of that quality in the same team in the same season was a massive stroke of luck.  Any team would have been lucky to have one!!

Chopping and changing every year has got us where - still in the same league.  Now’s the time for calm, holding your nerve and sticking with him.  Sometimes you have to take a step back to move forward.  It will work out best for the long term.

[King Kevin]

2 hours ago, desirelines said:

Are we gonna get a new one of these after every loss? Jeeeeessss. 

Well they do come along pretty often away from home.

[King Kevin]

I don't think he's lost the dressing room but he clearly can't motivate a team either . He is too defensive and timid for my liking ,a lot of people think he's articulate and knows his stuff but his team selections and constant change leaves a question mark from me .

Having said all that it's a reluctant in from me at the moment but he's testing my faith to the limit.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, AdamRam said:

He is not setting up his teams to lose though, the teams are set up to win a game by restricting the opponent in scoring. Surely you wouldn’t want the team to go so gung ho, given that we haven’t got any creative players in the team, that just wouldn’t make sense imo.

Of course we need to score goals, but he is trying to make us hard to beat, I suspect that if people can’t see this then maybe the best thing is to get rid of him as he isn’t going to change his style any time soon.

You’re getting a bit of criticism but you’re right, I really hope people aren’t expecting free flowing attacking football like a McClaren team eventually just because Cocu’s Dutch and more importantly I hope Mel wasn’t fooled into thinking this! If he has then maybe it is best if we get rid because we’d be wasting even more unnecessary time on a manager whose philosophy doesn’t match that of many fans- Rowett, Pearson and Clement got criticism for the poor quality of football.
 

Cocu’s been like this his whole career, he’s not an Erik Ten Haag who’s first thought is to attack no matter what, Cocu’s first thought is to be defensively solid by using the ball, he won’t change at this point as a manager. Even at psv when they were winning against the worst teams in the league, he had a reputation for bringing on defenders for the attackers instead of going for the jugular. He’s a pragmatist first and foremost. The answer to the poll depends on what you wanna see, wanna see attacking football? Cocu isn’t the man and won’t ever be that man, no matter how much time he’s given. Wanna see a solid, structured team in time? Cocu may be that man in a few years. I don’t agree with the Rowett comparisons, Rowett was a long ball merchant whereas Cocu tries to restrict opposition by using the ball to sustain possession 

[Nuwtfly]

10 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I don't think he's lost the dressing room but he clearly can't motivate a team either .

What makes you say that? 

Not all motivators are screaming and shouting from the sideline-types like Klopp