Cocu in or out?

[Wolfie20]

13 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Injuries apart, I expected more by now.

 

Surely, without the injuries there would have been

[therealhantsram]

I wonder if someone can dig out Lampard's record last season for the period mount was injured. 

I dare say it's not so different from Cocu. And Lampard had Tomori and Wilson in the team.

[IslandExile]

5 minutes ago, Archied said:

just out of interest how much would we have to give cocu to spend to buy mount, tomori and Wilson ?

Tomori is now out of the side and rumours abound (before he was injured) that Chelsea want Ake back from Bournemouth.

Tomori would be a cornerstone of a Rams team for a decade. ?

[Birdyabroad]

You know what, I’ve always been more in the ‘happy clapper’ than the ‘wrist slasher’ camp, but I’m fast falling out of ‘love’ with Cocu.

I always rated him as a player and thought this was an exciting move for Derby; the hope that we might see some Dutch flair.

But, after watching the Fulham and Blackburn games on the box, it was absolute dirge; zero to get enthused about. The wife and I went out with friends last night and I’m sure it took me a while to shake off a bad mood after watching the match.

I always remember something Mac said, about having 5 outfield players to essentially stop the ball and 5 to attack. This seems to make sense to me, so why on Earth are we playing with so many defensive minded players?

I’m also not buying the whole ‘give youth a chance’ angle. Having Knight and Whittaker on the bench and then handing the latter a 10 minute cameo at the end doesn’t cut it for me.

I was listening to Talksport yesterday as the results elsewhere were coming in and the commentator was talking up the youngsters that started for M’boro in their win yesterday. Boro are not even in the same U23 league as us, so why can’t our youngsters get a chance?

Nope, I’m not happy at all with the brand of football, if the results are mixed between here and New Year, Mel should pull the plug before Cocu squanders the transfer kitty* on 6 more defenders.

 

*If there is any

[IslandExile]

@OwenB87 I know you have to tow the company line ? but try and sneak into an interview with Cocu the question:

"Is every team and formation you're currently selecting aimed at getting maximum points - or - are you partly experimenting with next season in mind?".

Apologies for the cheek of me asking you to do this. If it's out of order, please forgive me and get Gibbo to ask ?

[NottsRam77]

This is like the general election just without the lies and false promises 

genuinely don’t know 

in terms of stability and actually seeing a plan through - in 

in terms of player recruitment, development and tactical instability it’s - Out 

who knows I’m just upset and despondent atm about our season 

[BondJovi]

Just now, Andicis said:

You don't need a fantastic team to get out of this league. You need a solid one with good management. 

Haven't we spent 5 years trying to get up at any cost? This is our worst set of players since part way through Clough's reign.

I fail to see a single one of our players being a starter in a team that currently sits in the top 6. We are a squad of bog standard championship players, the best players from last season are all gone(Bogle aside). 

Cocu has made some strange team choices. But he has been dealt a shocking hand and a fan base who have grown accustomed to winning.

With all that has gone on, midtable would be an acceptable season. We have had two huge off field distractions, the booze cruise and the Rooney hype. 

I do believe the performances should be better though and I have no idea why Malone gets ahead of Lowe. Confidence away from home is shot and that is starting to creep into the management team. 

January will tell us a lot about what the future holds. But we have to hold our nerve and see through the storm for the first time since Clough.

[angieram]

56 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Those voting for Cocu out, for you is it all about the results and performances of the first team this season?

Do you not see the bigger picture?

Do you not see the circumstances that Cocu has faced?

Do you not see the quality of the squad?

Do you not see that it's safe - and right - for him to experiment?

There is no danger of relegation. There is no chance of promotion. This season is about assessing the squad, the players, systems for the championship, blooding the youngsters - all in preparation for a real promotion challenge next season.

I've said it before - it's the iPad era..."I want it and I want it now". No time to build.

I've also said there's "too many sheep, not enough Rams". That applies to the mounting calls for Cocu to be sacked. Ridiculous.

It is like Brexit - those calling for it the most are those that will suffer the most when it happens. Sack Cocu, bring in Warnock, Hughton or Pullis, enjoy the football and a record low points total in the Premier League. Not again. Get serious.

Be patient. COYR ?

If all this is true, and he has a whole season to experiment; is it at all possible that he could try expirimenting with some attacking football from the start of games and not just when we are chasing them? ?

So far, he seems to be trying too hard to contain teams rather than giving them something to think about. I'd rather we were losing 4-2 than 1 or 2-0. That's if it doesn't matter.

At some point we have got to start scoring more goals if we are going to regularly win games - it's a good habit to get into.

I've voted in, but I'm not sure I am seeing anything to give me hope for improvement any time soon.

 

[NottsRam77]

7 minutes ago, Birdyabroad said:

You know what, I’ve always been more in the ‘happy clapper’ than the ‘wrist slasher’ camp, but I’m fast falling out of ‘love’ with Cocu.

I always rated him as a player and thought this was an exciting move for Derby; the hope that we might see some Dutch flair.

But, after watching the Fulham and Blackburn games on the box, it was absolute dirge; zero to get enthused about. The wife and I went out with friends last night and I’m sure it took me a while to shake off a bad mood after watching the match.

I always remember something Mac said, about having 5 outfield players to essentially stop the ball and 5 to attack. This seems to make sense to me, so why on Earth are we playing with so many defensive minded players?

I’m also not buying the whole ‘give youth a chance’ angle. Having Knight and Whittaker on the bench and then handing the latter a 10 minute cameo at the end doesn’t cut it for me.

I was listening to Talksport yesterday as the results elsewhere were coming in and the commentator was talking up the youngsters that started for M’boro in their win yesterday. Boro are not even in the same U23 league as us, so why can’t our youngsters get a chance?

Nope, I’m not happy at all with the brand of football, if the results are mixed between here and New Year, Mel should pull the plug before Cocu squanders the transfer kitty* on 6 more defenders.

 

*If there is any

Can’t really argue with any of that 

[Ambitious]

7 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I'm not sure about the relevance of his form for Blackburn who are a different club with different tactics, style, players, fans, etc. We knew how he fitted in here his form for Blackburn does not dictate how his form would have been had he stayed here.

Ditto for the tackles stat......it's just a random stat with no real context in terms of this debate. I mentioned aggression, drive, experience and motivation, many of these things cannot be quantified in a stat. Many of us saw the effect he had on the team when he returned after his spell out, tackles per game has no bearing on any of this.

I would agree that we lack quality, but we also lack all the things mentioned above. Funny thing is Johnson should have been an easy player to replace given his lack of quality, but we don't seem to have replaced him with anyone good enough!

I guess, but I personally don't see what Johnson would add to this team. The Blackburn point was just to show that they started him early, didn't have much success, swapped him out and now showing more ability and getting results. Johnson, for me, even last year was a player who looked like his days of competing at a high level in this division are long over. He's got the ability of League Two/Conference player, with some physical upside - that's my opinion of course. 

I'm also not sure the reason we're not where we want to be is because we lack aggression, drive or experience. I think we are where we are because we've scored the third fewest goals in the division, we're amongst the least creative teams in the division and as I mentioned we lack genuine quality. I don't think our problems are much deeper than that. I believe Cocu has reinforced the midfield to stop the defence from being blown out - we're very weak at CB with our injuries. Davies is a League One/League Two standard player, whilst Forsyth is a converted left back. The midfield are making a bigger defensive contribution, although it's taken what little creativity we had/have and made it worse. 

We're so poor at highlighting quality players in the transfer market that I doubt it will be fixed quickly. I'd like to see some scouts earn their wage - throw whatever cash we can towards Leicester and move their scouting department up the road for 10x their current wage. Whatever it takes. 

[JfR]

21 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

I wonder if someone can dig out Lampard's record last season for the period mount was injured. 

I dare say it's not so different from Cocu. And Lampard had Tomori and Wilson in the team.

Just in league games missed through injury, it was: 3W, 4D, 4L, 13 points from a possible 33, against teams ranked, at the time of playing: 8th, 9th, 13th, 13th, 13th, 15th, 16th, 19th, 19th, 20th and 24th. That includes 7 home games and 4 away games. That form, if carried throughout a full season, would have got us around 54 points and seen us finish 16th last season, but I think even that is misrepresentative of how poor we were as we only faced two teams in the top half of the table, none of the top 6, and were better at home than away. Over an actual season, we would likely have been worse. By comparison, if we maintain the same points per game standard we have shown so far this season across the entire season, we will finish with around 58 points.

Edit: Oh, and we scored 9 goals across those 11 games, conceded 13, and failed to score in 6 of them

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, angieram said:

If all this is true, and he has a whole season to experiment; is it at all possible that he could try expirimenting with some attacking football from the start of games and not just when we are chasing them? ?

So far, he seems to be trying too hard to contain teams rather than giving them something to think about. I'd rather we were losing 4-2 than 1 or 2-0. That's if it doesn't matter.

At some point we have got to start scoring more goals if we are going to regularly win games - it's a good habit to get into.

I've voted in, but I'm not sure I am seeing anything to give me hope for improvement any time soon.

 

I think this is a fair point. My one reservation about Cocu is that he does seem defensively minded.

I wonder though if this is partly forced by the form and quality of the attacking players.

Lawrence is inconsistent.

Something appears to be affecting Marriott.

We don't know if Martin is fit enough to play more regularly.

I love Waggy but he's not playing well.

I was hopeful of Paterson but then he faded.

I like Holmes energy and ability to run with the ball but his assists are almost as low as his goals tally.

Whittaker shows promise but in the academy games I've seen on RamsTV, Mitchell-Lawson looks a bigger threat.

Flo-jo....'nuff said.

[GrimsbyRam]

22 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

I wonder if someone can dig out Lampard's record last season for the period mount was injured. 

I dare say it's not so different from Cocu. And Lampard had Tomori and Wilson in the team.

Could do, could you also dig out the record where he was given a net £10 million to spend?

[AdamRam]

11 minutes ago, angieram said:

If all this is true, and he has a whole season to experiment; is it at all possible that he could try expirimenting with some attacking football from the start of games and not just when we are chasing them? ?

So far, he seems to be trying too hard to contain teams rather than giving them something to think about. I'd rather we were losing 4-2 than 1 or 2-0. That's if it doesn't matter.

At some point we have got to start scoring more goals if we are going to regularly win games - it's a good habit to get into.

I've voted in, but I'm not sure I am seeing anything to give me hope for improvement any time soon.

 

He is not setting up his teams to lose though, the teams are set up to win a game by restricting the opponent in scoring. Surely you wouldn’t want the team to go so gung ho, given that we haven’t got any creative players in the team, that just wouldn’t make sense imo.

Of course we need to score goals, but he is trying to make us hard to beat, I suspect that if people can’t see this then maybe the best thing is to get rid of him as he isn’t going to change his style any time soon.

[Sheikh n Bake]

1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

He is not setting up his teams to lose though, the teams are set up to win a game by restricting the opponent in scoring. Surely you wouldn’t want the team to go so gung ho, given that we haven’t got any creative players in the team, that just wouldn’t make sense imo.

Of course we need to score goals, but he is trying to make us hard to beat, I suspect that if people can’t see this then maybe the best thing is to get rid of him as he isn’t going to change his style any time soon.

This is nuts... It's ok for Cocu to play Rowett ball because it's Cocu then? 

Only Cocu is terrible at Rowett ball. 

 

[angieram]

2 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I think this is a fair point. My one reservation about Cocu is that he does seem defensively minded.

I wonder though if this is partly forced by the form and quality of the attacking players.

Lawrence is inconsistent.

Something appears to be affecting Marriott.

We don't know if Martin is fit enough to play more regularly.

I love Waggy but he's not playing well.

I was hopeful of Paterson but then he faded.

I like Holmes energy and ability to run with the ball but his assists are almost as low as his goals tally.

Whittaker shows promise but in the academy games I've seen on RamsTV, Mitchell-Lawson looks a bigger threat.

Flo-jo....'nuff said.

Actually Whittaker was far more productive at academy level last season than Mitchell-Lawson, but ML is a maker of golden chances. He's that old-fashioned winger some are calling for (not Cocu).

I think Whittaker is a stealth player, but he needs space to make his runs. Our build up play is so slow by the time he gets the ball all the spaces have gone. 

If I was Cocu I would be playing Knight or even Sibley instead of the Dowells or Pattersons in an attempt to speed up that build-up. And he could do worse than put Hector-Ingram into the team if he is insistent on playing a lone striker. That guy has confidence oozing out of every pore.

I'm only half joking about this. But if he would just go back to playing Martin and Marriott together up top with Lawrence in behind I would be a lot happier than I am watching any one of our forwards toiling alone in that central role with no-one near them.

Let's try and play some attractive football. 

[Andicis]

18 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Haven't we spent 5 years trying to get up at any cost? This is our worst set of players since part way through Clough's reign.

I fail to see a single one of our players being a starter in a team that currently sits in the top 6. We are a squad of bog standard championship players, the best players from last season are all gone(Bogle aside). 

Cocu has made some strange team choices. But he has been dealt a shocking hand and a fan base who have grown accustomed to winning.

With all that has gone on, midtable would be an acceptable season. We have had two huge off field distractions, the booze cruise and the Rooney hype. 

I do believe the performances should be better though and I have no idea why Malone gets ahead of Lowe. Confidence away from home is shot and that is starting to creep into the management team. 

January will tell us a lot about what the future holds. But we have to hold our nerve and see through the storm for the first time since Clough.

Chrissy Wilder got a team of bog standard Championship players into the Premier League. Warnock has multiple times. Just off the top of my head I came up with those two, I'm sure there are plenty more examples too. 

Good managers get the best out of their players. Good managers don't need the excuse of the squad, they squeeze more out of them. 

A lot of what you're saying is excuses. Dealt a shocking hand? Not a good one, but not worse than too many other teams to be honest. The Rooney hype is not a valid excuse. It's a lift to the club, not a drag. 

Can you name a single player that has improved under Cocu's coaching? A single one? I can't. He's a renowned coach isn't he? Well, where's the evidence? Bogle, Waghorn and some of our better players from last season have gone backwards or just stayed as they were. 

[Ramarena]

9 minutes ago, Ambitious said:

I guess, but I personally don't see what Johnson would add to this team. The Blackburn point was just to show that they started him early, didn't have much success, swapped him out and now showing more ability and getting results. Johnson, for me, even last year was a player who looked like his days of competing at a high level in this division are long over. He's got the ability of League Two/Conference player, with some physical upside - that's my opinion of course. 

I'm also not sure the reason we're not where we want to be is because we lack aggression, drive or experience. I think we are where we are because we've scored the third fewest goals in the division, we're amongst the least creative teams in the division and as I mentioned we lack genuine quality. I don't think our problems are much deeper than that. I believe Cocu has reinforced the midfield to stop the defence from being blown out - we're very weak at CB with our injuries. Davies is a League One/League Two standard player, whilst Forsyth is a converted left back. The midfield are making a bigger defensive contribution, although it's taken what little creativity we had/have and made it worse. 

We're so poor at highlighting quality players in the transfer market that I doubt it will be fixed quickly. I'd like to see some scouts earn their wage - throw whatever cash we can towards Leicester and move their scouting department up the road for 10x their current wage. Whatever it takes. 

Nail on the head here!!!!!!!!

Our recruitment has been poor for a few years now and I'm not sure why?

Do we focus too much on stats, not enough on stats, players mental and physical attributes, their reputation or form on the previous season? It seems so scattergun results wise that I don't think we know what we are buying and why we are buying it, take Paterson and Dowell what was remit behind their purchase (yes they are only loans but neither have been worth bothering with really and I don't think they were requested by Cocu as he's not even persevered with them. It's all very strange for such an important part of the club. 

The only players signed recently that I see the logic behind were the three loans Mount, Wilson and Tomori and this season Beilik for his potential and Shinnie for a solid midfield option. 

[DerpyDane]

Are we underperforming this season? Yes.

Do I want Cocu to get sacked? No.

Our squad is not top 6 material without Mount, Tomori and Wilson. But I don't think our squad is as bad as some make it out to be. We do have some quality players. And we should do better. I can get by with a 16th place, but only 2 teams have scored less than us and not once have we outdone a team properly. Our away form is a disgrace. Too much chopping and changing and not enough stability so far. I honestly don't think Rooney will have that much of an impact and I feel some people glorify Cocu too much due to his playing career and status. I'm not convinced we will become a force with Cocu in charge even if he's given the time.

That being said it wouldn't make sense to get rid of Cocu and bring in another new manager in the middle of a season. Unless we perform gradually worse and is in danger of relegation. But we're not that poor so I don't see that happening.

[AdamRam]

3 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

This is nuts... It's ok for Cocu to play Rowett ball because it's Cocu then? 

Only Cocu is terrible at Rowett ball. 

 

No Rowett ball was based upon players that he had brought in to play that style of play. Cocu is trying to stop us being so easy to beat, big difference.