Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Big Trav

Experiment

Recommended Posts

This thread can either go one of 2 ways. Either you’ll hate my thinking and slate me or you’ll understand and maybe agree. 

I think cocu is seeing this season as an experiment to see who he wants to keep and who needs to go. This is a reason for the change of formation to test the players ability to adapt and he’s playing players not in their natural position to see if their mentally strong and intelligent. We saw this with Forsyth who has also been tested physically. Cocu seems to be still figuring the players out in more detail than any other manager we’ve had. Wisdom for example I think cocu put him in to see if he’s physically ready for first team action and I think he’s put him in cb to see if he’ll handle it and show resilience. He’s also done it with Lawrence with playing him on the left and a 10 and even striker. He’s finding players best positions and finding out who’s mentally strong and who’s weak. He’s already planning what this teams going to look like next season and we’ll see a drastic change. 

Some fans will disagree saying if it’s not broke don’t fix it but changing systems will allow us to become very adaptable and very hard to beat and will be better in the longer term. He will identify positions that are needed and will implement the youth. Other fans will see the vision that he is creating and I think we’re in very good hands 

Share this post


Link to post

I agree that Cocu is using this year as an experiment, regardless of how big any investment is, we won't buy big in January and any significant purchases will happen in the summer.  I would largely agree with this method, however...

We say it every season, but this is yet another great opportunity to get into the top 6, there are only 2, possibly 3 teams really making a go of it, the rest are good one week, being beaten by mediocre teams the next.

We have been far from good this season, yet found ourselves with the best home record in the league before Saturday's game (perhaps still is), yet the worst away record.

A bit of extra quality may turn the defeats away into draws at least. I wouldn't mind if the season started out as an experiment, but I hope Mel and Philip have recognised what a great opportunity this season is presenting itself to be.

6 points from top 6, the team in 6th we just recently comfortably beat.

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps he could experiment more with getting the best out of players rather than seeing where they fail? I could understand the theory Big Trav is putting forward if these were the U18s or U23s but not at this level. The chance of discovering a player of quality being played 'out of position' is fairly limited.

When a team is winning games because players are playing well is maybe the time to have an experiment by bringing in youngsters. 

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I think any manager who doesn't pick a formation to get the best out of his players at any given time is an idiot.

If you can tell me the best position of every player in our squad I'd be impressed - I can't for about half of them

Bogle - RB, RWB or RW?

Lawrence, Waggers, Marriott?

Any of the midfield TBH

Plus Rooney coming in January

33 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

I think cocu is seeing this season as an experiment to see who he wants to keep and who needs to go.

Any new manager will be experimenting a little - I think it's also worth remembering the sheer volume of injuries - We have about 1 recognised CB and 2 CMs currently fit

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

If you can tell me the best position of every player in our squad I'd be impressed - I can't for about half of them

Bogle - RB, RWB or RW?

Lawrence, Waggers, Marriott?

Any of the midfield TBH

Plus Rooney coming in January

Any new manager will be experimenting a little - I think it's also worth remembering the sheer volume of injuries - We have about 1 recognised CB and 2 CMs currently fit

Bogle is a RB or RWB depending on a flat back 4 or 3 at the back and RW he ain't 

Lawrence is a 10 end of, he ain't a wide player in a million years ,Marriott needs to play in a two of some sort .

Waggers again wasted out wide again needs to play centrally 

Midfield I give up it's poo 

Rooney who knows?

You may notice that some of the positions are not mutually exclusive and there lies the problem we need to pick a system and the player we want to keep for those positions ,the rest get rid.

Edited by King Kevin
one CDM please CB.

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

You may notice that some of the positions are not mutually exclusive and there lies the problem we need to pick a system and the player we want to keep for those positions ,the rest get rid.

May I remind you of this:

46 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

I think any manager who doesn't pick a formation to get the best out of his players at any given time is an idiot.

😉

Do you want him to pick the formation and the right players? Or find a formation which works for the players he has right now?

That's a pretty quick turnaround in viewpoints

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, cheron85 said:

May I remind you of this:

😉

Do you want him to pick the formation and the right players? Or find a formation which works for the players he has right now?

That's a pretty quick turnaround in viewpoints

No it's not ,  what you've just said amounts to the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post

Tbh I don't know if this is Cocu's thinking, I doubt it is - but I wouldn't blame him if it was. We've tried lots of combinations of players up front and we've struggled to create in every game. The performance lauded as the best of our season was a 1-0 win.

The first thing that needs to be addressed in January is the creativity. With Bielik out of the team against QPR there was literally none of it, and while I've been very critical of the forwards of late - judging whether or not they're good enough will be easier to do when they have more than 2 chances a game between them.

It will be helped massively by Rooney, if we can get a wide player or two who will create regularly as well, we'll be in a far better position to judge our supposed goalscorers.

Between now and January, I don't see an improvement unless we look to youth players more often and they make a very successful (and immediate) step up.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Big Trav said:

This thread can either go one of 2 ways. Either you’ll hate my thinking and slate me or you’ll understand and maybe agree. 

I think cocu is seeing this season as an experiment to see who he wants to keep and who needs to go. This is a reason for the change of formation to test the players ability to adapt and he’s playing players not in their natural position to see if their mentally strong and intelligent. We saw this with Forsyth who has also been tested physically. Cocu seems to be still figuring the players out in more detail than any other manager we’ve had. Wisdom for example I think cocu put him in to see if he’s physically ready for first team action and I think he’s put him in cb to see if he’ll handle it and show resilience. He’s also done it with Lawrence with playing him on the left and a 10 and even striker. He’s finding players best positions and finding out who’s mentally strong and who’s weak. He’s already planning what this teams going to look like next season and we’ll see a drastic change. 

Some fans will disagree saying if it’s not broke don’t fix it but changing systems will allow us to become very adaptable and very hard to beat and will be better in the longer term. He will identify positions that are needed and will implement the youth. Other fans will see the vision that he is creating and I think we’re in very good hands 

Great minds think ...... and all that, I posted this yesterday in another thread, agree it’s a bit of a ‘left field’ theory but you never know 🙂

Posted yesterday at 09:15

I’ve had an idea .... how about if Cocu is being even cleverer than we give him credit for? ..... how about if all this tinkering is deliberate and designed to mess with the heads of those in the first team squad ... to sort the wheat from the chaff ... perhaps he’s gone to Mel and said ‘look as long as we don’t get relegated will you give me this season to sort this lot out, to see who is really a footballer, to see who can adapt to different formations, different situations, at the end of this season I’ll have a bloody good idea who can cut it & who can’t, then next season with new players I have in mind & those youngsters coming through who I believe in we can give it a proper go’. Mel says ‘ok, go for it I’m on board, rattle a few cages and see who can cut it, the rest are history’ .... perhaps as fans we all need to play the long(er) game and trust our manager ...... perhaps I’m wrong??????

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, King Kevin said:

No it's not ,  what you've just said amounts to the same thing.

No they aren't

1) Pick a formation and stick with it then pick the best player for each position each game

2) Look at the players you have an decide what the best way of playing your best 11 (fit) players is

Route 2 is flexible and (I think) what he seems to be doing (to an extent) at the moment - Seems necessary when you have new injury problems every week but long term could be good if it means the team can play different formations - However it's difficult for people to get used to this, takes much smarter players - Because they're expected to adapt to different formations/positions every week and not leave gaps - Plus you might end up with a lopsided formation is one player naturally plays further forward/back

Route 2 is England when we were trying to fit Lamps and Gerard into the same team

Route 1 is more what Mac1 did - Stuck rigorously to 4-3-3 and then fit players around it - Hence people like Bamford playing on the 'wing' - You probably need 22 good players for this system (plus youth) and each one of them being a relative specialist / Get very used to playing a position - Easy cos everyone knows what they're doing and where to be - But sometimes you end up leaving talented players on the bench to facilitate a mediocre player who works a role better

Route 1 is Ferguson's United (especially in the latter years when the talent was drying up)

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, King Kevin said:

I think any manager who doesn't pick a formation to get the best out of his players at any given time is an idiot.

I think the opposite.

If I was a manager then I'd pick a system I want. Then I'd scour the club for the players for that system.

If we don't have some then I'd look to get them in, buys, loans..

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Big Trav said:

This thread can either go one of 2 ways. Either you’ll hate my thinking and slate me or you’ll understand and maybe agree. 

I think cocu is seeing this season as an experiment to see who he wants to keep and who needs to go. This is a reason for the change of formation to test the players ability to adapt and he’s playing players not in their natural position to see if their mentally strong and intelligent. We saw this with Forsyth who has also been tested physically. Cocu seems to be still figuring the players out in more detail than any other manager we’ve had. Wisdom for example I think cocu put him in to see if he’s physically ready for first team action and I think he’s put him in cb to see if he’ll handle it and show resilience. He’s also done it with Lawrence with playing him on the left and a 10 and even striker. He’s finding players best positions and finding out who’s mentally strong and who’s weak. He’s already planning what this teams going to look like next season and we’ll see a drastic change. 

Some fans will disagree saying if it’s not broke don’t fix it but changing systems will allow us to become very adaptable and very hard to beat and will be better in the longer term. He will identify positions that are needed and will implement the youth. Other fans will see the vision that he is creating and I think we’re in very good hands 

He's playing the players he has available to him. Forsyth is playing CB because he's one of the two best we have available in that position. Wisdom played RB not CB as he pushed Bogle up to RW because no one else is good enough to play there or are needed to play elsewhere. He's playing Lawrence central because he's the only one who looks like he's going to score.

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, woody01530 said:

I think the opposite.

If I was a manager then I'd pick a system I want. Then I'd scour the club for the players for that system.

If we don't have some then I'd look to get them in, buys, loans..

Which are we doing?

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

He's playing the players he has available to him. Forsyth is playing CB because he's one of the two best we have available in that position. Wisdom played RB not CB as he pushed Bogle up to RW because no one else is good enough to play there or are needed to play elsewhere. He's playing Lawrence central because he's the only one who looks like he's going to score.

I think it's a bit of both. Undoubtedly his hand is being forced by injuries bit I think there's a lot of weight to @Big Trav's hypothesis too. Injuries and a lack of real quality in the squad may have done for us this season (though I've not given up hope as yet), but I'll be having a decent wager on us next season assuming the summer window goes well. We'll have a very decent chunk of money to spend and I can see some shrewd signings being made from the continent if Brexit doesn't scupper such deals.

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Taking a long time to get a consistently fit crop of players to choose from to fit into his preferred system.

What's his preferred system ? I'm not sure the only thing I hope that it doesn't contain two defensive midfield players .

Share this post


Link to post

@Big Trav

Why do you think we played these players in these positions...

  • Lowe RB
  • Bielik CB
  • Forsyth CB
  • Waghorn RW
  • Bogle RW
  • Holmes RW
  • Marriott RW

I'll give you a clue

  • Lowe played RB when Bogle, Wisdom, Holmes and Anya were all injured.
  • Bielik played CB when Keogh was our only fit CB, and again when Davies was our only fit CB
  • Forsyth played CB when Davies was our only fit CB
  • Waghorn/Bogle/Holmes/Marriott played RW as no recognized winger wants to play well when selected to play there.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account.

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.