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Cocu interview - Long term vision for the club


Sean

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Just now, Angry Ram said:

Is there such a thing as a long term plan (project), in football?? Will he be here in 4 years? Odds are against it.

I think so yes but all of the club needs to be behind it. As Cocu pointed out, all of the coaches need to be behind it, from U9s through to the first team. All of the club staff need to be behind it and if that happens, there's a chance the philosophy starts to pay off. 

Positivity is a massive factor and I believe the club are on the right track for winning supporters over. Well, the biggest majority anyway.

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48 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Is there such a thing as a long term plan (project), in football?? Will he be here in 4 years? Odds are against it.

Unless something disasterous happens and we get relegated, then yes i think he would still be here. On the flip side, if in 2 years time we are doing really well and he has bought through a few gems, A prem club might come in an nick him.

So we could be buggered either way.

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47 minutes ago, cannable said:

Reminds me of this. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/21615556

He was sacked six months later and three years later Mel Morris was claiming it as his own ?

There are a few similarities but some important differences in that Cloughie alludes to throwing in the youth out of necessity without having a clue as to how aligned to the first team their style of play was - ie it was driven purely by the economics.

 

This feels and sounds much more coordinated and i expect we will see 2 streams of youth emerging.

1) those who have value, but won't fit DCFC - sold as assets

2) those who fit who will be progressed to the 1st team and who may subsequently be sold for even more value.

It seems to have taken us a while to find someone who buys into this holistic approach. You get the impression (which may be completely unfounded) that other managers gave the impression of this thinking but didn't follow through.

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5 hours ago, David said:

Be nice wouldn’t it? 

I’ll stop there because if I don’t, will turn into a full on rant which I’m due but trying to be good ?

I’ll help you along to that rant no bother haha 

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14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Never buy into 'transition' seasons. I'm afraid football is just too short term these days.

What is your idea of transition?

Is it getting players to play how he wants to play?

Think we are seeing that there are quite a few not up to it, which surely means a clear out and another season of transition?

I think @mwram1973 sums it up pretty well for me

 

13 hours ago, mwram1973 said:

I don't think this is a transition season tbh, I think it's a full transition that will take many seasons. He'll need time to develop the kids for the 1st team and bring in the right players to compliment them. He also needs to get rid of the players we already have that just cannot do what he wants. I don't buy into the " a good manager will adapt his system to the players he has", that may work short term, ( Warnock ), long term it's proven not to work.

He needs 2-4 seasons and then I think we'll be a prem side that's capable of holding our own.

 

  We need to change a lot of players, but we've needed it for a while now. So many managers with their own ideas, but none of them were prepared to dispose of the players that weren't suitable, preferring instead to stock up in the hope that one day they may be of use. Lampard looked as though with time he may have been able to make his own team, but hey ho.

  Cocu has got a very big job on his hands. He's certainly for me talking the talk. Hopefully he's not another Rowett! His plan will need time. After so long out of the "promised land" would a bit more be such a problem for us fans. If Mel is prepared to wait, why can't we? Brighton were close to relegation the season after loosing to us in the playoffs, look where they are now after rebuilding properly. Southampton went into the third division. I'm not saying we should do it the way they did, just that a season or even two of not challenging for the play offs even may not be the end of the world if the right work is being done further down within the club.

  I would love us to get promoted, and the sooner the better. However I wouldn't like us to be threatening our own records! Let's do it properly this time. More like we did under Clough, Cox or Smith, not Wee Billy.

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Loving all this. I love the idea of a long term, sustainable plan. You wonder how other clubs do it. You’ve got clubs like us, and Brighton who are always there are there about a, always the bridesmaid, and then you get clubs like Norwich that seemingly come from nowhere, having had a run of fairly average seasons if you’ve not been paying too much attention. I’ve always thought it would be quite nice to be one of those clubs. Not just scraping through in the play offs, but actually taking the league by storm, trouncing all in our path, and finishing on triple figures for points.

if a couple of seasons of good work in the background but mediocre results on the pitch is the price to pay for that sort of scenario, then I pay it gladly.

but it does all seem like the actual business of playing football on a Saturday is a secondary priority. Like in terms of the league, we’re just treading water till we can develop the kids more. This whole season the first team games have almost passed me by, but I’ve been really engaged in the youth team games. 

It’s probably not a bad thing if the first team potters about in mid table this season though, flying under the radar. From the outside looking in, Cocu doesn’t appear to be working any miracles, so no one is likely to nick him before he’s had chance to build his, and Mel’s, vision. Two seasons in a row we’ve lost our manager through no real fault of our own. 

As for if Cocu will still be here in 4 years, I guess his job is dependant on progress and targets, and it seems that a lot of those targets aren’t to do with what happens on the pitch. As long as we avoid completely embarrassing ourselves out there, but the targets are all being met behind the scenes, he should be fine.  

We forget though, that those of us on this forum do not represent the majority of the fan base. There’s plenty who show up on a Saturday that don’t watch these interviews, don’t see what goes on in the background, and all they see are the results of the matches they attend. I do hope a few mediocre results don’t see the PP crowd get on Cocu and Mel’s back. I hole they realise this is a possible, natural consequence of this kind of approach, and they’ve got the thick skin to to not take it too personally. 

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There seems to be an almost universal desire to see Derby build a team of academy graduates.

bogle, Lowe, knight, sibley, Buchanan, Mitchell-Lawson, and bird plus 21 year old bielik looks a good foundation, with a further wave to follow hopefully. However the slow progress of integration suggests that we’d be unlikely to see the new ‘team’ for at least 2-3 years, and we’ve really no idea whether the kids are going to be good enough to turn us into a promotion side. Some of these players may peak at the Bennett-Hanson threshold.

 I would prefer that we start to get more players into the team per season. I can’t quite imagine five or six  breaking through all at once having been slowly integrated as described. the suggestion that we would cash in on a player after a couple of seasons also seems counter productive to long term success. Finally most of what was described was already the existing strategy as described previously by Wassall and rowett. 

I’d like us to be a bit braver. Most of the existing first teamers are fairly ordinary players. Let’s just get on with it. We might just surprise ourselves.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

There are a few similarities but some important differences in that Cloughie alludes to throwing in the youth out of necessity without having a clue as to how aligned to the first team their style of play was - ie it was driven purely by the economics.

 

This feels and sounds much more coordinated and i expect we will see 2 streams of youth emerging.

1) those who have value, but won't fit DCFC - sold as assets

2) those who fit who will be progressed to the 1st team and who may subsequently be sold for even more value.

It seems to have taken us a while to find someone who buys into this holistic approach. You get the impression (which may be completely unfounded) that other managers gave the impression of this thinking but didn't follow through.

The last part of your quote is so true.

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2 hours ago, RamNut said:

There seems to be an almost universal desire to see Derby build a team of academy graduates.

bogle, Lowe, knight, sibley, Buchanan, Mitchell-Lawson, and bird plus 21 year old bielik looks a good foundation, with a further wave to follow hopefully. However the slow progress of integration suggests that we’d be unlikely to see the new ‘team’ for at least 2-3 years, and we’ve really no idea whether the kids are going to be good enough to turn us into a promotion side. Some of these players may peak at the Bennett-Hanson threshold.

 I would prefer that we start to get more players into the team per season. I can’t quite imagine five or six  breaking through all at once having been slowly integrated as described. the suggestion that we would cash in on a player after a couple of seasons also seems counter productive to long term success. Finally most of what was described was already the existing strategy as described previously by Wassall and rowett. 

I’d like us to be a bit braver. Most of the existing first teamers are fairly ordinary players. Let’s just get on with it. We might just surprise ourselves.

 

 

Some very good points and i think some of the players will get put in before the end of the season. the one thing cocu doesnt say is some times you have a young player that is so good he just has to go into the team ie (Rooney at everton) i remember watching him when he was 13 yrs old in everton U16 and you could already see he was a cut above.at 16 he makes his debut and i guess the rest is history.

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I build teams for a living. Sometimes I stay with them for up to 6 years - sometimes only 6 months. 
 

I would never use the term transition. You just seek to improve on what you have. You do this by implementing a culture, processes, ways of working and ensuring you have the right support framework in place.

You then coach, train and mentor your teams to improve their performance. Sometimes you get great results from individuals, sometimes not. Sometimes people leave, sometimes you hire, sometimes you take on apprentices.

You are never really transitioning to anything - just seeking to continually improve. Performance is generally related to the baseline of capability you inherit on day one. If it’s high - your improvement starts from a high bar, if it’s not, you start from a lower bar.

Cocu isn’t aiming for a target, he is simply implementing a methodology to assist him in continual improvement. The bar is relatively high (second tier of professional football) but incremental gains will see promotion when we are ready - if his methodology is a positive one, and if he is given the time to get enough incremental gains to be successful.

Patience will either make or break his plans.

I have some - time we tell if I have enough!

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It all sounds very good in an interview but the Academy needs a lot of work.  At the moment it is just full of egos, coaches that are more interested in themselves than the players that they are supposed to be developing.  Results are not great and they can't compete with most other Cat 1 academies which is down to the poor coaching and recruitment.  They have more success when they get to U18 and U23 levels as they have good coaches then and bring players in from other academies.

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