Cocu

[LeedsRam1999]

Cocu is playing the right way but the players just aren’t good enough to do so. Give him the time he needs to transform the squad, gets his players in and bring through the youth playing the style he wants. 
 

We all knew this wasn’t a one season job that’s why he was offered a 4 year contract. 
 

If Cocu gets this right then he is setting the club up well for the next 10-15 years.

[brady1993]

19 hours ago, rammieib said:

Thought he was gutless today and the away approach is getting tiring. Just played decent home to Boro and walki big to the game I thought ‘great - he’s going for it again’.

Then we line up 4-4-2. Lawrence, wasted on one wing, Holmes poor on the other and then two defensive mods just sitting there.

Cue defence pass to Shinnie/Bielik/Holmes, cue ball goes back to defence. Status quo resumes time after time. Then hey guess what, we’re not good enough and concede a stupid goal and hey guess what, we don’t score away so we’re never going to get in the game.

Why not be ballsy and gone out the same tactics as last week? Why not play Lawrence where he can have an effect.

Watching us play away is painful and frustrating.

We hear how good Cocu supposedly is but these away performances are simply dreadful and extremely naive.

Ok so two questions; did you watch the game ? And did you notice both were Forest focused their attacks and were the space to attack them was ? 

All their play was focused out wide whilst the space was appearing behind their full backs. Playing a 442 made complete sense in that regard as I think there is a good chance that the diamond would have crumbled in this game.

Besides we weren't dreadful by any means. All that seperate the sides was a mistake and some iffy finishing from us.

[MaltRam]

He'll get it right if supported. He knows his business. Patience.

[GB SPORTS]

15 hours ago, Charlie George said:

We went backwards the day we signed Prior. Having sold Christian Dailly for £5.5 million we spent peanuts on him. We were crying out for the money to be spent on a quality centre back. If only....

Selling Carsley was TBE's biggest mistake and to one of our closest rivals so underrated.

[rammieib]

3 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Ok so two questions; did you watch the game ? And did you notice both were Forest focused their attacks and were the space to attack them was ? 

All their play was focused out wide whilst the space was appearing behind their full backs. Playing a 442 made complete sense in that regard as I think there is a good chance that the diamond would have crumbled in this game.

Besides we weren't dreadful by any means. All that seperate the sides was a mistake and some iffy finishing from us.

1) Yes I was at the game

2) Forest continually found space where our DM`s were supposed to be. The fact we had two on the pitch both playing deep is even mor disconcerting. Evans continually focussed on marking space instead of being near a man.

Our attacking play in the first half consisted of one lovely move by Bogle showing guts to take it forward and Martin doing what he does back and Lawrence being in the area we need him most...behind the front two. However this was Lawrence drifting away from his set position which was on the wing.

In the second half we looked better when Shinnie was off. That’s obvious though, we could take risks, we could overload and we had more men in offensive positions. That’s why Bogle could head it down to Marriott for his chance.

Other than those two, I don’t think we created many other chances. Agree we looked better than other games (Brentford for instance) but I’m not sure we could have looked worse.

We should have had the balls to take ownership ourselves. Let us dictate the play more and give Martin some support from him. Holmes is more effective in the middle for me. Shinnie I want in both boxes, not liking deep, Lawrence to be in the game, Martin with people to lay it off to and Marriott making runs onto 15-20 yard slotted passes, not 40 yard over the top hopeful balls.

Everything we have shown to not work well this season we decided to employ yesterday in our tactics. The only time we tried to do things well yesterday was the last 15. 

 

[Derby blood]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

1) Yes I was at the game

2) Forest continually found space where our DM`s were supposed to be. The fact we had two on the pitch both playing deep is even mor disconcerting. Evans continually focussed on marking space instead of being near a man.

Our attacking play in the first half consisted of one lovely move by Bogle showing guts to take it forward and Martin doing what he does back and Lawrence being in the area we need him most...behind the front two. However this was Lawrence drifting away from his set position which was on the wing.

In the second half we looked better when Shinnie was off. That’s obvious though, we could take risks, we could overload and we had more men in offensive positions. That’s why Bogle could head it down to Marriott for his chance.

Other than those two, I don’t think we created many other chances. Agree we looked better than other games (Brentford for instance) but I’m not sure we could have looked worse.

We should have had the balls to take ownership ourselves. Let us dictate the play more and give Martin some support from him. Holmes is more effective in the middle for me. Shinnie I want in both boxes, not liking deep, Lawrence to be in the game, Martin with people to lay it off to and Marriott making runs onto 15-20 yard slotted passes, not 40 yard over the top hopeful balls.

Everything we have shown to not work well this season we decided to employ yesterday in our tactics. The only time we tried to do things well yesterday was the last 15. 

 

We will deffo have to agree to disagree on this I thought we got our line up and players spot on for this, it was a mistake which gave Forest the points, the game changed for me when Clarke went off, and Bielik had to go back in defence, that upset our game plan, thought Bielik had another very good game. Think we are now starting to play some good football, and I believe it will get better, also much prefer 2 up front, exciting times ahead. 

[rammieib]

5 minutes ago, Derby blood said:

We will deffo have to agree to disagree on this I thought we got our line up and players spot on for this, it was a mistake which gave Forest the points, the game changed for me when Clarke went off, and Bielik had to go back in defence, that upset our game plan, thought Bielik had another very good game. Think we are now starting to play some good football, and I believe it will get better, also much prefer 2 up front, exciting times ahead. 

Losing Bielik from the middle of the pitch was a huge blow. I really want him to grow into that position and hope to see Lawrence back behind the front two as soon as possible. I thought he was good in defence as well.

[Derby blood]

34 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Losing Bielik from the middle of the pitch was a huge blow. I really want him to grow into that position and hope to see Lawrence back behind the front two as soon as possible. I thought he was good in defence as well.

I think Bielik will become a top, top player for us, is getting better with every game, although I still think his best position is centre midfield

[curb]

7 hours ago, rammieib said:

1) Yes I was at the game

2) Forest continually found space where our DM`s were supposed to be. The fact we had two on the pitch both playing deep is even mor disconcerting. Evans continually focussed on marking space instead of being near a man.

Our attacking play in the first half consisted of one lovely move by Bogle showing guts to take it forward and Martin doing what he does back and Lawrence being in the area we need him most...behind the front two. However this was Lawrence drifting away from his set position which was on the wing.

In the second half we looked better when Shinnie was off. That’s obvious though, we could take risks, we could overload and we had more men in offensive positions. That’s why Bogle could head it down to Marriott for his chance.

Other than those two, I don’t think we created many other chances. Agree we looked better than other games (Brentford for instance) but I’m not sure we could have looked worse.

We should have had the balls to take ownership ourselves. Let us dictate the play more and give Martin some support from him. Holmes is more effective in the middle for me. Shinnie I want in both boxes, not liking deep, Lawrence to be in the game, Martin with people to lay it off to and Marriott making runs onto 15-20 yard slotted passes, not 40 yard over the top hopeful balls.

Everything we have shown to not work well this season we decided to employ yesterday in our tactics. The only time we tried to do things well yesterday was the last 15. 

 

You want four four players in the 10 position, central behind the two forwards?

 

It might be a bit congested in there, but hey, let's give it a go.

[rammieib]

31 minutes ago, curb said:

You want four four players in the 10 position, central behind the two forwards?

 

It might be a bit congested in there, but hey, let's give it a go.

In English?

I want us to be more attack minded, I want us to stick with the diamond which worked against Boro. Shinnie/Holmes box to box. Lawrence free to pick up space. Martin to play it into with runners and Marriott being the poacher.

 

 

[Alph]

The mistake that gave Forest the points is the kind of mistake that Davies and Bielik have made several times, Malone has made a few times, Roos has made a couple of times, Clarke has made a couple of times and possibly others 

It's a mistake that you ask for when your DM's like Huddlestone, Evans, Shinnie keep dropping the ball back to the back 4 and inviting a higher press. And the back 4 crumble because they don't want to start going long

How can anyone say we aren't making an unusual amount of unforced errors in possession? 

The nearest we have got to being so clumsy in possession was Clement. Him asking Shackell, Warnock and Bradley Johnson to play possession football on the left half of the pitch at the back was awful. We were always bogged down. 

That's exactly how we play now. Good pass - ok pass - slightly over hit pass - slightly poor touch - possession slipping - possession gone. 

All because Cocu wants the back 4 to all play like Keogh. They can't. And even if they could then why does the back of the midfield not have to be brave?

Bielik is the exception. He's the deepest midfielder to pick the ball up and try and feed it through. 

Away from home we will keep finding teams are more urgent to press us. 

The same at Hull. As Bielik tired and Shinnie faded we soon was asking too much of the backline. 

The biggest crime of the DM's at Forest was not only were the DM's negative but everytime Ameobi cut inside he didn't run into a DM. Where were they? 

And Silva was given time to show his fancy footwork and thoroughly enjoyed himself. 

I'm not wanting Cocu out. But it's not a bit of bad luck or a touch of poor quality that's seen us lose to Brentford 3-0, Charlton 3-0, Hull 2-0, Forest 3-0, Forest 1-0, draw 2-2 with the bottom 2, pick up our only away win at Huddersfield on opening day. 

Our best away result was at Leeds. A game that if the roles were reversed you'd be saying "How have we not won that!!" 

[G STAR RAM]

On 09/11/2019 at 20:17, RoyMac5 said:

This runners off Martin stuff gets tedious and constantly repeated. He needs players on the pitch that can play one-touch football, that can find space, that can anticipate his passing/knock-downs. Waggy looked slightly more there than Marriott when he came on today. Both fullbacks got it. Lawrence got it.

Of course the counter argument to this is that we have not got the sort of players that make Martin effective, he needs to learn to adapt his game to the players around him or Cocu should not bother playing him.

This is not an attack of Martin by the way, think hes done well since he came back into the fold.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Cocu has the players he has until January. Does he play to suit the personnel we have or does he continue with his philosophy throughout the club until he can get what he wants. If he and the club are genuinely in this for the long term, which means getting things right for promotion and after, then the first 4 months is not the time to judge him.

I like his style and given this season to implement things and hopefully better players to come I think/hope he can prove to be our best manager in years.

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Of course the counter argument to this is that we have not got the sort of players that make Martin effective, he needs to learn to adapt his game to the players around him or Cocu should not bother playing him.

This is not an attack of Martin by the way, think hes done well since he came back into the fold.

As Martin just requires 'footballers' around him I'd be a bit nervous making him play a different game! ? ?  It is depressing watching how many touches some of our players require to control a ball.

[Hector was the best]

By listening to Cocu speak would it inspire you to go onto the pitch, and give you the "do or die" attitude ?  Just a thought. 

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, Hector was the best said:

By listening to Cocu speak would it inspire you to go onto the pitch, and give you the "do or die" attitude ?  Just a thought. 

They're footballers not soldiers! There are more ways to inspire than shouting. So knowing all that Cocu had done in his career(s) to date, and his understanding of the game, yes.

[brady1993]

18 hours ago, rammieib said:

1) Yes I was at the game

2) Forest continually found space where our DM`s were supposed to be. The fact we had two on the pitch both playing deep is even mor disconcerting. Evans continually focussed on marking space instead of being near a man.

Our attacking play in the first half consisted of one lovely move by Bogle showing guts to take it forward and Martin doing what he does back and Lawrence being in the area we need him most...behind the front two. However this was Lawrence drifting away from his set position which was on the wing.

In the second half we looked better when Shinnie was off. That’s obvious though, we could take risks, we could overload and we had more men in offensive positions. That’s why Bogle could head it down to Marriott for his chance.

Other than those two, I don’t think we created many other chances. Agree we looked better than other games (Brentford for instance) but I’m not sure we could have looked worse.

We should have had the balls to take ownership ourselves. Let us dictate the play more and give Martin some support from him. Holmes is more effective in the middle for me. Shinnie I want in both boxes, not liking deep, Lawrence to be in the game, Martin with people to lay it off to and Marriott making runs onto 15-20 yard slotted passes, not 40 yard over the top hopeful balls.

Everything we have shown to not work well this season we decided to employ yesterday in our tactics. The only time we tried to do things well yesterday was the last 15. 

 

Having re-read it my original post comes across as unnecessarily confrontational, my apologies.

Personally I didn't think forest did find that much space in the middle and I thought we did an effective job of limiting them to pot shots from outside the box and until Bogle's mistake I didn't they were going to score.

I think we were taking the game to them in the first half however every time we built up a bit of steam someone gave the ball away cheaply breaking the momentum. 

Lawrence drifted into that position because that was clearly the plan for him.

I don't disagree about Shinnie and I think were I definately think you can argue Cocu went wrong was not taking him off sooner.

Everything in bold I completely agree with but personally I can completely understand why we didn't play the diamond yesterday as I think we would have gotten torn apart on the wings. 

Ultimately my view is that we went away from home, created 4 good chances whilst limiting forest to hardly anything apart from the mistake.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

Cocu has the players he has until January. Does he play to suit the personnel we have or does he continue with his philosophy throughout the club until he can get what he wants. If he and the club are genuinely in this for the long term, which means getting things right for promotion and after, then the first 4 months is not the time to judge him.

I like his style and given this season to implement things and hopefully better players to come I think/hope he can prove to be our best manager in years.

I would like to see him blur the lines between what he wants and what we have a bit more. 

He's unfortunate that he's lost Keogh and his best DM is needed at CB. He's had Bogle out too. 

But maybe just be a bit more direct at times. Just when the pressing is clearly forcing us into hospital passes. Some of the chances conceded by Bielik and Davies etc are comical (although we aren't laughing) 

Remember the lovely long range passes from Buxton? 

Cocu plays the type of football where if you press the backline the defenders can be comfortable 1v1 beating their man. If it was Tomori and Keogh I think we'd have more points. 

It was spot on v Forest until Bielik went off. Bielik and Bogle able to slice through them and a few direct balls to keep from getting penned in. They didn't quite seem to know how to defend. 

I really really don't want a change of manager. Even if we have a really bad season. It's just boring false dawn again. I do think Cocu will be good when he gets his own players. And he's had time to evaluate his team. 

But short term he needs a few results or he'll be the next Clement. 

[RoyMac5]

rammieib: "We should have had the balls to take ownership ourselves. Let us dictate the play more and give Martin some support from him. Holmes is more effective in the middle for me. Shinnie I want in both boxes, not liking deep, Lawrence to be in the game, Martin with people to lay it off to and Marriott making runs onto 15-20 yard slotted passes, not 40 yard over the top hopeful balls."

55 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Everything in bold I completely agree with

I think too much emphasis is being given on Chrissy laying it off. In the first half there were a couple of times he was on the edge of the box and perhaps should have shot - needs to be more confident? But hopefully with more game time in the new formation that will come.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

I would like to see him blur the lines between what he wants and what we have a bit more. 

He's unfortunate that he's lost Keogh and his best DM is needed at CB. He's had Bogle out too. 

But maybe just be a bit more direct at times. Just when the pressing is clearly forcing us into hospital passes. Some of the chances conceded by Bielik and Davies etc are comical (although we aren't laughing) 

Remember the lovely long range passes from Buxton? 

Cocu plays the type of football where if you press the backline the defenders can be comfortable 1v1 beating their man. If it was Tomori and Keogh I think we'd have more points. 

It was spot on v Forest until Bielik went off. Bielik and Bogle able to slice through them and a few direct balls to keep from getting penned in. They didn't quite seem to know how to defend. 

I really really don't want a change of manager. Even if we have a really bad season. It's just boring false dawn again. I do think Cocu will be good when he gets his own players. And he's had time to evaluate his team. 

But short term he needs a few results or he'll be the next Clement. 

I agree with a lot of that Alpha although I do see a slightly longer game than we started out with already. Roos is using his generally excellent long kicking to the wings a lot more than he was.

I also agree that the main issue is the personnel we have at centre back. I am perhaps deluding myself that the club understand what is needed and have the wages and buying power to bring in the necessary in January (I have no idea who). IF we can sort the centre backs positions along with the arrival of Rooney I think we could have a very good and entertaining second half of the season. UTR