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A penny for Mels thoughts


MackworthRamIsGod

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2 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

So you saying Mel sacked a manager who wanted immediate promotion, then brought one in who got rid of the best youth product the club has ever produced, played anti football and brought players towards the end of their careers with the goal to ultimately gain promotion at any costs ?

Sort of my point, one year his outlook is youth, the next the Derby way, then it’s Rowett or Person...where is the consistency?

I've often said I think what Morris was looking for was 3 things in a manger - 1) Youth/Drive, 2) Discipline/Passion and 3) A connection/love for the club

Clement had number 1, Pearson had number 2 (was number 2) and Macca had 3 - Rowett was the 'perfect' candidate because he ticked all the boxes

Again though - IMO you're taking all the appointments as 'Morris only' - The only appointments we know are Morris acting (mostly) alone are Rowett, Lampard and Cocu all of which are understandable appointments and where we've been forced into finding a new manager

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1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

But our high losses are because we've narrowly missed out season after season. Those other clubs have/had the benefit of extra income through parachute payments, or took the opportunity to clear out the more expensive players, and sell players on for a profit for at least one season. None of those clubs were in our position of being in and around the top 6 for such a prolonged period of time, which meant their outgoings didn't increase as much as ours year on year (without it being subsidized by parachute payments)

We now have the opportunity to take the latter route of slashing our losses and rebuild on a lower budget.

Fair enough, but it still doesn’t get away from the fact that we are in a worse position than we was when he took over ?

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

To me, it seems like we've learnt our lesson since the Clement signings and are at a healthy level in terms on profit/loss on players.

Just because they still at the club doesn’t mean we have learnt the lesson, how many of them would you realistically expect to get any where near what we paid for them, Lawrence ? Flo ? Malone ? Waghorn ? I expect none of them would command a fee anywhere near what we paid for them. Marriott and Holmes are probably two that would exceed though to be fair. 

To be fair, I’m also not saying that it’s MM fault that he has given money to managers that have spent it unwisely, I just don’t think he is blameless with his managerial decisions and vision.

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19 hours ago, AdamRam said:

I cannot to this multi quotation thing so please bear with me ?

You go and watch matches, do you honestly believe that we have a squad that is anywhere near the previous seasons, I’m not basing my view on the league position alone but what’s happening on the pitch.
 

He was sacked for gross misconduct, what is the difference between the actions of the other three and his on that night, other than unfortunately he came out of the crash injured ?

I have no issue with the Rooney deal, I was highlighting another incident where we make headlines based on the actions of Mel. The only issue I really have with the deal is that I honestly believe (cannot prove it and no evidence) that it had an impact on our transfer dealings in the latter part of the window.

Our loss last year I believe was 40m, compared to what it was when he took over, is a considerable increase - once again a subjective view, with now a very average at best championship team.

The transfer dealings was all done to the late arrival of cocu.you can blame Mr Lampard for that one.

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3 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Fair enough, but it still doesn’t get away from the fact that we are in a worse position than we was when he took over ?

That's not fact - That's your opinion

3 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

I expect none of them would command a fee anywhere near what we paid for them.

Yeh but I don't want to sell them - I want them to get better and play well for Derby County - Not sell them for a profit or loss to anyone - When we sign a player I think "Does this improve us as a team/squad?" not "Are we going to be able to sell him for more than that?"

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11 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I've often said I think what Morris was looking for was 3 things in a manger - 1) Youth/Drive, 2) Discipline/Passion and 3) A connection/love for the club

Clement had number 1, Pearson had number 2 (was number 2) and Macca had 3 - Rowett was the 'perfect' candidate because he ticked all the boxes

Again though - IMO you're taking all the appointments as 'Morris only' - The only appointments we know are Morris acting (mostly) alone are Rowett, Lampard and Cocu all of which are understandable appointments and where we've been forced into finding a new manager

Rowett went for youth ? Why did he get rid of Hughes ?

On one thread you attribute the success of the Mac 1 season to Clough being sacked as a result of direct influence from MM at time he wasn’t even at the club, yet above you want him to be absolved of blame for appointments when SR was here, even though this time he owned the club ? You don’t really believe that he didn’t have the final say on hiring and firing at that time do you ?

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1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

Fair enough, but it still doesn’t get away from the fact that we are in a worse position than we was when he took over ?

Just because they still at the club doesn’t mean we have learnt the lesson, how many of them would you realistically expect to get any where near what we paid for them, Lawrence ? Flo ? Malone ? Waghorn ? I expect none of them would command a fee anywhere near what we paid for them. Marriott and Holmes are probably two that would exceed though to be fair. 

To be fair, I’m also not saying that it’s MM fault that he has given money to managers that have spent it unwisely, I just don’t think he is blameless with his managerial decisions and vision.

So who out of the past mangers would you have kept??

Mac 2 -not the same impact as Mac 1 

Pearson- rumoured big problems behind the scenes and lets be honest shocking football.

Clement-again rumours that behind the scenes activity caused this.not to mention the football was dross.

Rowertt- someone else wanted him and football was poor.

Lampard - we all know how that went.

My point is none of this was CAUSED by Mel apart from the fact that he appointed them but he could never have forseen these events.

 

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6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

That's not fact - That's your opinion

Yeh but I don't want to sell them - I want them to get better and play well for Derby County - Not sell them for a profit or loss to anyone - When we sign a player I think "Does this improve us as a team/squad?" not "Are we going to be able to sell him for more than that?"

Cause it’s fact, he took over a club that finished 3rd, at this moment in time we are languishing in the second half of the table, having NEVER finished as high as we did that season, what is to debate around that ? 
 

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Just now, Ramslaar said:

So who out of the past mangers would you have kept??

Mac 2 -not the same impact as Mac 1 

Pearson- rumoured big problems behind the scenes and lets be honest shocking football.

Clement-again rumours that behind the scenes activity caused this.not to mention the football was dross.

Rowertt- someone else wanted him and football was poor.

Lampard - we all know how that went.

My point is none of this was CAUSED by Mel apart from the fact that he appointed them but he could never have forseen these events.

 

Rumour certainly has a lot to answer for doesn’t it, all of course must be true.

Id have probably brought in some of the managers above as well, wouldn’t have sacked them though, and would have accepted my share of the blame as a bad fit for the club if things had gone as drastically wrong as they did at times.

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21 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Fair enough, but it still doesn’t get away from the fact that we are in a worse position than we was when he took over ?

Worse in some areas, better in others.

21 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Just because they still at the club doesn’t mean we have learnt the lesson, how many of them would you realistically expect to get any where near what we paid for them, Lawrence ? Flo ? Malone ? Waghorn ? I expect none of them would command a fee anywhere near what we paid for them. Marriott and Holmes are probably two that would exceed though to be fair. 

To be fair, I’m also not saying that it’s MM fault that he has given money to managers that have spent it unwisely, I just don’t think he is blameless with his managerial decisions and vision.

Carson, Huddlestone and Davies fall in the group of value for money. We won't be breaking even on them but what they've given us is worth what we spent.
Holmes, Evans and (especially) Shinnie were all low value transfers and I'd expect us to make a profit if we did sell them on.
I'd expect us to at least break even on Lawrence, Marriott and Malone.
It's too early to make a judgement on Bielik but I feel very few would argue he's potentially a top class player.
Wisdom, Jozefzoon and Waghorn will be difficult to move on without making a loss. The latter could possible end up in the Carson/Huddlestone/Davies group.

That's not a bad success rate.

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1 minute ago, AdamRam said:

Rumour certainly has a lot to answer for doesn’t it, all of course must be true.

Id have probably brought in some of the managers above as well, wouldn’t have sacked them though, and would have accepted my share of the blame as a bad fit for the club if things had gone as drastically wrong as they did at times.

He did accept they were not a good fit hence why he sacked them.so who would you have kept??

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19 hours ago, AdamRam said:

And my point at the start of the discussion was that MM has to take his fair share of the blame., never said it was all his doing.
 

As for butterflied and Johnson, I would lay no blame at his door, he didn’t choose the players (I hope :-)), as the custodian of the club though I would expect him to be fully aware of the overall finances and any impact to FFP.

Johnson was a weird one. We only found out about his availability with about twenty hours of the transfer window left.

Just don’t sign him. You’ve not scouted him properly and you don’t have the time to negotiate fees properly. 

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17 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

That's not fact - That's your opinion

Yeh but I don't want to sell them - I want them to get better and play well for Derby County - Not sell them for a profit or loss to anyone - When we sign a player I think "Does this improve us as a team/squad?" not "Are we going to be able to sell him for more than that?"

Mel’s gone on record as saying we want to improve players to increase their value 

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Just now, Ghost of Clough said:

Carson, Huddlestone and Davies fall in the group of value for money. We won't be breaking even on them but what they've given us is worth what we spent.
Holmes, Evans and (especially) Shinnie were all low value transfers and I'd expect us to make a profit if we did sell them on.
I'd expect us to at least break even on Lawrence, Marriott and Malone.
It's too early to make a judgement on Bielik but I feel very few would argue he's potentially a top class player.
Wisdom, Jozefzoon and Waghorn will be difficult to move on without making a loss. The latter could possible end up in the Carson/Huddlestone/Davies group.

That's not a bad success rate.

Possibly and hopefully, if we can keep our manager for more than a season then I do believe that we can learn from mistakes, and as players get time to play the same role and have that consistency then we could see players exceeding their values we paid for them. I was merely pointing out, as yet this hasn’t happened, and imo MM has made mistakes that have contributed to this. 
 

Don’t expect people to agree with me, just my view.

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8 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Rowett went for youth ? Why did he get rid of Hughes ?

On one thread you attribute the success of the Mac 1 season to Clough being sacked as a result of direct influence from MM at time he wasn’t even at the club, yet above you want him to be absolved of blame for appointments when SR was here, even though this time he owned the club ? You don’t really believe that he didn’t have the final say on hiring and firing at that time do you ?

No - Youth/Drive in the manager not his selections - A young manager who could stay a long time and provide a legacy - That's what was talked about a lot when Clement was appointed

And I haven't said anyone should be absolved of blame - I'm saying there's a difference between the actions of the club when it come to managerial appointments since Morris was in sole control vs when he wasn't - He needs to be held to account for the whole lot but you need to recognise there's a difference in the scenarios 

9 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Cause it’s fact, he took over a club that finished 3rd, at this moment in time we are languishing in the second half of the table, having NEVER finished as high as we did that season, what is to debate around that ? 

3rd was a vast outlier of a season compared the the overall pattern across many seasons - Since he took over we've been in the playoffs 3 of 4 years as opposed to 1 of 6/7 under previous owners

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3 minutes ago, Ramslaar said:

He did accept they were not a good fit hence why he sacked them.so who would you have kept??

I would have kept both Mac 2 and PC on for a longer period, sacking them both so early was wrong imo. Not that I would have hired Mac 2 in the first place though.

Sorry maybe I missed something, If he accepted they weren’t good fits, are you saying he admits he made a mistake, if so I’m not sure what we are debating ?

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2 minutes ago, cannable said:

Mel’s gone on record as saying we want to improve players to increase their value 

Doesn't mean he then wants to sell them ? I want us to improve every single one of our players too and I want them to be more valuable because they're taking us to the Premier League

Doesn't mean we want to become a club who just buys players to farm them off to someone better for a profit

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2 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

No - Youth/Drive in the manager not his selections - A young manager who could stay a long time and provide a legacy - That's what was talked about a lot when Clement was appointed

And I haven't said anyone should be absolved of blame - I'm saying there's a difference between the actions of the club when it come to managerial appointments since Morris was in sole control vs when he wasn't - He needs to be held to account for the whole lot but you need to recognise there's a difference in the scenarios 

Ah apologies I thought you meant as in team selection. Maybe he was guided by SR into employing these managers but he still signed off on the strategy.

7 minutes ago, cheron85 said:
18 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

 

3rd was a vast outlier of a season compared the the overall pattern across many seasons - Since he took over we've been in the playoffs 3 of 4 years as opposed to 1 of 6/7 under previous owners

I’m talking as at today, not last or the season before, today. You could argue that there is more to come from this team and we are underperforming but it doesn’t get away from the fact that we are 16th in the league, therefore we aren’t performing as well as the side he took over.

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