IlsonDerby Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 hours ago, AdamRam said: A lower half table club with a poor squad, having just sacked our captain for gross miss conduct, whilst keeping the two other culprits on the pay roll despite them being found guilty for DD and fleeing the scene of a crime. Not forgetting still being under EFL investigation for selling our ground to comply with FFP rules, bringing in a 34 year old player on god knows how much money funded by a betting company, having a yearly running cost that is so much that we are having to seek investment to subside it. Thats not even going mentioning past events like dressing rooms, drones, Sam Rush etc....etc... Blokes poured over 100m into our club. Transforming us from one season wonders at the top end of the table, a category 2 academy and good facilities to in and around the play offs consistently, a category 1 academy we are starting to feel the rewards of and world class facilities. I challenge any fan to run a football club and not let their heart rule on at least a couple of decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Quote I base it on what I think this squad is capable of once things click. Fair enough, I’d argue differently and we are missing players in key positions but time will tell and I’d be happy for you to be proved right on that one. 26 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Quote 2 can perform the roles they're paid to do. The other can't perform the role he was paid to do So you are saying the gross misconduct is that Keogh hurt his leg ? 27 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Quote Surely getting someone in of Rooney's calibre would improve our chances of getting players in? Don’t get me wrong WR is a class player and yes I’m sure he would, however if the budget no longer or didn’t allow it....pure speculation that one ? 30 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Do the same for every club in this division and I'm sure you'll find most are now losing a lot more than what they were 5/6 years ago. I wouldn’t have a scooby to be honest, and I’ll take your word for it. I’d be very surprised if the costs have gone up the same in the proportion through ours have. That’s not to say that without this investment that we wouldn’t have been challenging for the play offs, I get that, I just look at the side as of today. IMO there has been a lot of bad investment into players, not Mels fault as he didn’t pick the players, however he was the catalyst for numerous sackings and allowing players to be bought under one manager that didn’t suit the style of the next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, IlsonDerby said: Blokes poured over 100m into our club. Transforming us from one season wonders at the top end of the table, a category 2 academy and good facilities to in and around the play offs consistently, a category 1 academy we are starting to feel the rewards of and world class facilities. I challenge any fan to run a football club and not let their heart rule on at least a couple of decisions. No arguing that he has done a lot of good for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, AdamRam said: No arguing that he has done a lot of good for the club. Just feels like as a fan base the phrase ‘transitional season’ is thrown around but as soon as our season starts to look like a transitional season Mel gets pelters, Cocu gets pelters, the team get pelters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, AdamRam said: So you are saying the gross misconduct is that Keogh hurt his leg ? All three were guilty of gross misconduct - Lawrence and Bennett have been punished for their actions. But, as Keogh is injured for the remainder of his contract (due to his own stupidity in his spare time), then he can no longer perform the task required in his contract. Just now, AdamRam said: Don’t get me wrong WR is a class player and yes I’m sure he would, however if the budget no longer or didn’t allow it....pure speculation that one ? But the increased sponsor money is supposed to cover the Rooney’s wages potentially more than covering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, AdamRam said: I wouldn’t have a scooby to be honest, and I’ll take your word for it. I’d be very surprised if the costs have gone up the same in the proportion through ours have. Our costs went up from being a mid-table championship side (essentially) to a regular top 6 team - There won't be too many teams who've been at the top end this long who are losing much less than us - Just look down the road and how much Forest have been losing season after season staying mid-table 8 minutes ago, AdamRam said: allowing players to be bought under one manager that didn’t suit the style of the next. I don't think you mean that do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: Our costs went up from being a mid-table championship side (essentially) to a regular top 6 team - There won't be too many teams who've been at the top end this long who are losing much less than us - Just look down the road and how much Forest have been losing season after season staying mid-table I don't think you mean that do you? Red dogs lost 20 million compared to our 43 last year according to the below table. Cardiff wolves and Fulham all have bonus payments included within their figures, so whilst they may look high they are probably comparable to ours. Compare us to Leeds, Bristol City, Norwich and it shows you don’t have to be at the top end of the table to compete. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/ And yes I do mean it, sanctioning several transfers in a January window before sacking the manager just 8 days after it ended was why imo we have an operating loss that is so hefty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BramcoteRam84 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Mel has made mistakes. I don’t think this has been handled brilliantly, but he’s probably thinking why the hell do I bother especially this season. My thoughts have changed a lot on this during the past few weeks but the facts are, Three complete and utter dheads have brought the club into disrepute through sheer arrogance and showing a complete and utter disregard for anyone but themselves. I still believe in forgiving and redemption but they all could have no complaints if they were sacked - but ultimately the club suffers! Especially in the case of Lawrence and Bennett. Now morally Mel should be consistent and dish out the same punishment to all three (if there weren’t other factors with Keogh) but he’s probably thought duck it, they’ve shown disregard for the club so I have no loyalty to them and I will do what is right for the club financially and to hell with what anyone says and while we may not agree - again who can blame him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Couldn’t care less what he thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 If he had any self reflection he'd be thinking I've made a right balls up of this haven't I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 10 hours ago, AdamRam said: You asked a question, I answered it. Thanks for your well thought response though - I’ll consider it ? personally i would suggest you might want to become a follower of another club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 7 hours ago, TommyPowel said: personally i would suggest you might want to become a follower of another club And another well thought out response, no offence but I’ll not consider this one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 14 hours ago, AdamRam said: Red dogs lost 20 million compared to our 43 last year according to the below table. Cardiff wolves and Fulham all have bonus payments included within their figures, so whilst they may look high they are probably comparable to ours. Compare us to Leeds, Bristol City, Norwich and it shows you don’t have to be at the top end of the table to compete. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/ How many of the clubs you mentioned have competed for top 6 for a sustained period of time like we have? All have had the benefit of parachute payments to cover losses or had a bottom half season to 'reset'. Forest - One top half finish in 5 years. Cardiff - 1 top 6 finish (1 season in Prem) and parachute payments Wolves - 4 seasons in the Championship (1 in Prem, 1 previous in L1). 2 bottom half finishes, 1 top 6 finish (Champions) Fulham - 2 bottom half seasons, 2 top 6 finishes (1 promotion and season in Prem) and parachute payments Leeds - 2 top half finishes (1 in top 6) Bristol - 1 top half finish, 1 season in L1 Norwich - 1 bottom half season, 3 top half (2 promotions), and a season in Prem, with parachute payments 14 hours ago, AdamRam said: And yes I do mean it, sanctioning several transfers in a January window before sacking the manager just 8 days after it ended was why imo we have an operating loss that is so hefty. The next manager (for the rest of the season) was Wassall, who certainly used the players at his disposal in a way which suited them. The manager afterwards was Pearson, whose style didn't suit the players available to him, but Mel was willing to give him time to shape the squad... until an 'unknown event' led to his immediate suspension. Then the return of the Mac who's style of football (adapted from Mac I) suited the players well until he tried to change things in the January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: How many of the clubs you mentioned have competed for top 6 for a sustained period of time like we have? All have had the benefit of parachute payments to cover losses or had a bottom half season to 'reset'. The original point was around the increase of costs from when Mel took over to now. The table highlights that whilst there are a few other clubs that have similar outgoings as at the last account, several of these are/or have been playing PL football. I’m not disagreeing we haven’t challenged for the top 6, but ultimately we have failed, and now we sit with massive operational losses and a team that is dwindling in the lower reaches of the table, completely the opposite of when he took over. Maybe you don’t see that as regression, but I do. 19 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: The next manager (for the rest of the season) was Wassall, who certainly used the players at his disposal in a way which suited them. The manager afterwards was Pearson, whose style didn't suit the players available to him, but Mel was willing to give him time to shape the squad... until an 'unknown event' led to his immediate suspension. Then the return of the Mac who's style of football (adapted from Mac I) suited the players well until he tried to change things in the January. Each manager brought in players that have since been shifted out by the club at massive losses, now had the manager stayed they may have still been a flop however some never even got the chance to play more than a handful of games in the role they were brought it for. The point is continuity, why sign off on a cheque for millions of pounds and then sack the manager who you referred to as being the next Ferguson, only days later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, AdamRam said: The original point was around the increase of costs from when Mel took over to now. The table highlights that whilst there are a few other clubs that have similar outgoings as at the last account, several of these are/or have been playing PL football. I’m not disagreeing we haven’t challenged for the top 6, but ultimately we have failed, and now we sit with massive operational losses and a team that is dwindling in the lower reaches of the table, completely the opposite of when he took over. Maybe you don’t see that as regression, but I do. But our high losses are because we've narrowly missed out season after season. Those other clubs have/had the benefit of extra income through parachute payments, or took the opportunity to clear out the more expensive players, and sell players on for a profit for at least one season. None of those clubs were in our position of being in and around the top 6 for such a prolonged period of time, which meant their outgoings didn't increase as much as ours year on year (without it being subsidized by parachute payments) We now have the opportunity to take the latter route of slashing our losses and rebuild on a lower budget. 6 minutes ago, AdamRam said: Each manager brought in players that have since been shifted out by the club at massive losses, now had the manager stayed they may have still been a flop however some never even got the chance to play more than a handful of games in the role they were brought it for. The point is continuity, why sign off on a cheque for millions of pounds and then sack the manager who you referred to as being the next Ferguson, only days later. Clement Signings Johnson - £7m loss Ince - £1m profit Butterfield - £5m loss Shackell - £3.5m loss Weimann - £1.4m loss (minus loan fee) Blackman - £3m loss Camara - £1.5m loss Olsson - £0.6m loss Pearce, Bent, Baird - £0 Still at the club Carson Other Manager Signings Vydra - £2.5m profit Anya - £4m loss Nugent - £2.5m loss McAllister - Unknown Weale - £0 Jerome - c£0 Cole - £0 Still at the club Lawrence, Wisdom, Huddlestone, Davies, Waghorn, Marriott, Jozefzoon, Holmes, Evans, Malone, Bielik, Shinnie To me, it seems like we've learnt our lesson since the Clement signings and are at a healthy level in terms on profit/loss on players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 26 minutes ago, AdamRam said: Each manager brought in players that have since been shifted out by the club at massive losses, now had the manager stayed they may have still been a flop however some never even got the chance to play more than a handful of games in the role they were brought it for. The point is continuity, why sign off on a cheque for millions of pounds and then sack the manager who you referred to as being the next Ferguson, only days later. Because things change You can be perfectly prepared to back someone one week and then something happens which changes that The rumours around Clement were that he came out after the transfer window was closed and told Morris he was more interested in immediate promotion at any cost than the long term building which was the basis Morris and Rush had hired him on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said: To me, it seems like we've learnt our lesson since the Clement signings and are at a healthy level in terms on profit/loss on players. Also - That discounts the fact that we're not Brentford - We're not here to make money on players and train them for someone better 3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Clement Signings Johnson - 140+ games for the club (wikipedia?) Ince - £1m profit and bags of goals and games Butterfield - 80 games (wiki) Shackell - 50+ games Weimann - 80 games (also thought we didn't lose money on him...) Blackman - £can't take any positives from this one Camara - or this one Olsson - Scored a winner against forest Other Manager Signings Vydra - £2.5m profit Anya - Curse you Pearson... Nugent - Well worth the money over 2 and a half years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said: To me, it seems like we've learnt our lesson since the Clement signings and are at a healthy level in terms on profit/loss on players. This year is also the first season since Clement where we have spent significantly more than we received on player sales and even then the Bielik fee was mostly offset by the fee for Lampard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 32 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Because things change You can be perfectly prepared to back someone one week and then something happens which changes that The rumours around Clement were that he came out after the transfer window was closed and told Morris he was more interested in immediate promotion at any cost than the long term building which was the basis Morris and Rush had hired him on So you saying Mel sacked a manager who wanted immediate promotion, then brought one in who got rid of the best youth product the club has ever produced, played anti football and brought players towards the end of their careers with the goal to ultimately gain promotion at any costs ? Sort of my point, one year his outlook is youth, the next the Derby way, then it’s Rowett or Person...where is the consistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 1 minute ago, AdamRam said: Sort of my point, one year his outlook is youth, the next the Derby way, then it’s Rowett or Person...where is the consistency? Like us fans he got carried away with wanting to see Derby in the Prem. Thought he'd said as much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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