Terrorist or not?

[1of4]

Struggling to understand how a British citizen as been convicted of attending a terrorist training camp. The man, Aidan James trained and fought alongside a group of Kurds. A group who had been backed and supported by the west as allies in their battle with and ultimate defeat of ISIS.

The Kurds were assisted in their battle with ISIS by not only the USA air force but also our own RAF. Who carried out strategic bombing, that allowed the Kurds to capture towns and cities held by ISIS.

So how can our government now allow our own courts to prosecute and jail a person who fought along with the Kurds to defeat the real terrorist?

[King Kevin]

Hopefully they have made a mistake ,if not they are dheads.

[Wolfie]

There are Kurdish terrorists and our alliance with them was a strategic thing to defeat the greater threat of IS, in a "my enemy's enemy is my friend" kind of way.

[Anon]

We have always been at war with the YPG citizen Smith.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Anon said:

We have always been at war with the YPG citizen Smith.

From the Government publication: Kurdish aspirations and the interests of the UK: Government response to the Committee’s Third Report

"The UK Government has limited contact with the PYD / YPG, and none at all with the PKK. In interactions with the PYD / YPG, we raise our concerns about any links they may have with the PKK and urge them to distance themselves from the PKK and its terrorist activity."

So I think 'war' is overstating it but it would be fair to say that our 'support' of the Kurdish factions (the PKK aside) rather depends on how closely their interests converge with our own.

 

[jono]

The complexities of the Middle East are so so huge but I have always felt a bit story for the Kurds. Sadam Gassed them, Assad hates them and the Turks feel the same. 
 

judging which Kurds are terrorists and which are fighting their corner( and there will be both )  is beyond me. 

[Comrade 86]

12 minutes ago, jono said:

judging which Kurds are terrorists and which are fighting their corner( and there will be both )  is beyond me. 

Wouldn't let that worry you, my good man, given that despite the billions spent on global snooping, the US and UK governments have now proven they don't know either.

Personally, I'm far more proud of your achievement, especially given you don't even own a network of spy satellites. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

From the Government publication: Kurdish aspirations and the interests of the UK: Government response to the Committee’s Third Report

"The UK Government has limited contact with the PYD / YPG, and none at all with the PKK. In interactions with the PYD / YPG, we raise our concerns about any links they may have with the PKK and urge them to distance themselves from the PKK and its terrorist activity."

So I think 'war' is overstating it but it would be fair to say that our 'support' of the Kurdish factions (the PKK aside) rather depends on how closely their interests converge with our own.

 

Twas ever thus I fear.........is this the mythical "national interest" at play again...........a thing so intangible and rarely understood it has achieved a level of mythology on a par with a fast, in-swinging, accurate DCFC corner.

?

[ramit]

1 hour ago, jono said:

The complexities of the Middle East are so so huge but I have always felt a bit story for the Kurds. Sadam Gassed them, Assad hates them and the Turks feel the same.

Assad does not hate the Kurds, they are Syrian citizens, Syria being a secular country.  The Kurds used the opportunity when the war broke out to enlarge their territory with the aim of securing a Kurdish breakaway nation.  This was an unfriendly act against their government to say the least. They did this with the assistance of invading US forces who sought to oust Assad's government and overtake Syria militarily by supporting, training and arming jihadi terrorists.  Kurds displaced local Arab tribes when taking over their areas.  Now that US forces in that area have moved out and Turkey has invaded Syria to attack the Kurd with the supposed aim of moving them from the Turkish border Kurdish authorities have sought to reconcile with the Syrian government.  Negotiations have gone well and the Syrian Army has moved into Kurdish controlled cities and towns, establishing government control of those areas but also protections from military assaults from Turkey.

[sage]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Were the following 10 people terrorists?

George Washington

Gandhi

Gerry Adams

Nelson Mandela

David Ben-Gurion

Violette Szabo

Lenin

Robert Mugabe

Chief Sitting Bull

Robin Hood

 

 

 

 

 

[MaltRam]

13 minutes ago, sage said:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Were the following 10 people terrorists?

George Washington No. A rebel. And I'd have opposed him and probably been wrong.

Gandhi No

Gerry Adams Yes

Nelson Mandela No

David Ben-Gurion No

Violette Szabo No

Lenin No

Robert Mugabe Yes. Eventually.

Chief Sitting Bull No

Robin Hood. Never heard of him.

 

 

 

 

 

But that's from my perspective. As you say, there are other perspectives.

I think it's important to pick a side. In this case it shouldn't be a tricky call. Anyone opposing IS is golden.

 

[jono]

34 minutes ago, ramit said:

Assad does not hate the Kurds, they are Syrian citizens, Syria being a secular country.  The Kurds used the opportunity when the war broke out to enlarge their territory with the aim of securing a Kurdish breakaway nation.  This was an unfriendly act against their government to say the least. They did this with the assistance of invading US forces who sought to oust Assad's government and overtake Syria militarily by supporting, training and arming jihadi terrorists.  Kurds displaced local Arab tribes when taking over their areas.  Now that US forces in that area have moved out and Turkey has invaded Syria to attack the Kurd with the supposed aim of moving them from the Turkish border Kurdish authorities have sought to reconcile with the Syrian government.  Negotiations have gone well and the Syrian Army has moved into Kurdish controlled cities and towns, establishing government control of those areas but also protections from military assaults from Turkey.

Thanks for the info. Genuinely !

mind you I can’t help feeling that every Kurd, just like every Irishman, Palestinian, or Israeli  would necessarily agree with a certain political viewpoint. And Assad isn’t quite my idea of a sweet natured Democrat /  one nation for all sort of guy.

but my knowledge is skimpy so no judgement from me on this one.

[Leeds Ram]

The problem is that there has been cooperation between the PKK and PYD and it is pretty deep. 

47 minutes ago, ramit said:

Assad does not hate the Kurds, they are Syrian citizens, Syria being a secular country.  The Kurds used the opportunity when the war broke out to enlarge their territory with the aim of securing a Kurdish breakaway nation.  This was an unfriendly act against their government to say the least. They did this with the assistance of invading US forces who sought to oust Assad's government and overtake Syria militarily by supporting, training and arming jihadi terrorists.  Kurds displaced local Arab tribes when taking over their areas.  Now that US forces in that area have moved out and Turkey has invaded Syria to attack the Kurd with the supposed aim of moving them from the Turkish border Kurdish authorities have sought to reconcile with the Syrian government.  Negotiations have gone well and the Syrian Army has moved into Kurdish controlled cities and towns, establishing government control of those areas but also protections from military assaults from Turkey.

This is almost all wrong and is basically parroting the russian line on the conflict. The uprising against Assad's fascist regime wasn't filled with jihadi terrorists at all it was a civil democratic peaceful uprising. The syrian regime themselves released Jihadists from prisons as a way of trying to destabilise the opposition and undermine them. Christopher Phillips has also written extensively on the role played by regional countries which have been far more substantial than the US's relatively minor role. 

The syrian regime isn't secular it's deeply sectarian. They've perpetuated sectarian murders through the Shahiba as a method of trying to keep the support of the religious minorities and Arab merchant class which comprise most of the support of the Syrian regime. 

[ramit]

20 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

The problem is that there has been cooperation between the PKK and PYD and it is pretty deep. 

This is almost all wrong and is basically parroting the russian line on the conflict. The uprising against Assad's fascist regime wasn't filled with jihadi terrorists at all it was a civil democratic peaceful uprising. The syrian regime themselves released Jihadists from prisons as a way of trying to destabilise the opposition and undermine them. Christopher Phillips has also written extensively on the role played by regional countries which have been far more substantial than the US's relatively minor role. 

The syrian regime isn't secular it's deeply sectarian. They've perpetuated sectarian murders through the Shahiba as a method of trying to keep the support of the religious minorities and Arab merchant class which comprise most of the support of the Syrian regime. 

Assad is an elected President of Syria, so the fascism claim does not fit in describing his government.  The Russians came to the assistance of the Syrian government by request and are legitimate forces in the country.  i suspect your apparent hate for Russia is clouding your view of the situation in Syria, but like it or not they are on the right side and their point of view on the Syrian situation more valid than the supporters of terrorists.  The "uprising" was violent from the start and instigated by regional powers unfriendly to Syria, the second part you got right, but with support from western nations as well, led by USA who have played a significant part in this war by arming, training and supporting head chopping terrorists, whether you like to admit that or not.  These abysmal jihadi terrorists were from the start called freedom fighters in the western press and by Government officials.

Syria has been a secular country since it's independence from France in 1946.  Assad is an Alawite, a minority group in the country.  Shahiba?  i guess you mean Shabiha, Sunni muslim militias.  How exactly does perpetrating sectarian murders through the Shabiha induce support from religious minorities?

[Leeds Ram]

2 minutes ago, ramit said:

Assad is an elected President of Syria, so the fascism claim does not fit in describing his government.  The Russians came to the assistance of the Syrian government by request and are legitimate forces in the country.  i suspect your apparent hate for Russia is clouding your view of the situation in Syria, but like it or not they are on the right side and their point of view on the Syrian situation more valid than the supporters of terrorists.  The "uprising" was violent from the start and instigated by regional powers unfriendly to Syria, the second part you got right, but with support from western nations as well, led by USA who have played a significant part in this war by arming, training and supporting head chopping terrorists, whether you like to admit that or not.  These abysmal jihadi terrorists were from the start called freedom fighters in the western press and by Government officials.

Syria has been a secular country since it's independence from France in 1946.  Assad is an Alawite, a minority group in the country.  Shahiba?  i guess you mean Shabiha, Sunni muslim militias.  How exactly does perpetrating sectarian murders through the Shabiha induce support from religious minorities?

elected... you mean in the election he won like 98% support because obviously it's a totally free and fair election... Ba'athism has its ideological roots in European fascism which David Roberts has done a lot of work on. Not at all, I don't hate Russia but i do dislike Putin and i do dislike the bombing of hospitals and supporting a man who gasses his own people because of geo-political interests. 

No it wasn't, seriously read Robin Yassin Kassab on this or Syrian notebooks by Johnathan little or the impossible revolution Yassin Saleh or the syria dilemma by numerous academics or Syria's uprising by Emile Hokayem. Any of these highlight the fact it wasn't initially a violent uprising and even the violence which did spawn from the uprisings was initially defensive. They also examine the organic nature of the uprisings which share some characteristics of the Arab Springs in other country. 

Syria's history is fractured with sectarianism both inside government and outside of it. Describing it as secular ignores these very real sub-national identities. Sorry Shabiha it's been a long day. They're not sunni muslim militia's but are armed sectarian gangs who used to be incorporated into Riifat's defence forces. It's the attempt by the Assad regime to sectarianise the conflict and force the religious minorities to think of the revolution as a threat to their livelihoods and ability to live in Syria. This is especially the case since the Assad regime relies upon a patchwork of tribal, religious and a merchant class to survive. 

[ramit]

54 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

elected... you mean in the election he won like 98% support because obviously it's a totally free and fair election... Ba'athism has its ideological roots in European fascism which David Roberts has done a lot of work on. Not at all, I don't hate Russia but i do dislike Putin and i do dislike the bombing of hospitals and supporting a man who gasses his own people because of geo-political interests. 

No it wasn't, seriously read Robin Yassin Kassab on this or Syrian notebooks by Johnathan little or the impossible revolution Yassin Saleh or the syria dilemma by numerous academics or Syria's uprising by Emile Hokayem. Any of these highlight the fact it wasn't initially a violent uprising and even the violence which did spawn from the uprisings was initially defensive. They also examine the organic nature of the uprisings which share some characteristics of the Arab Springs in other country. 

Syria's history is fractured with sectarianism both inside government and outside of it. Describing it as secular ignores these very real sub-national identities. Sorry Shabiha it's been a long day. They're not sunni muslim militia's but are armed sectarian gangs who used to be incorporated into Riifat's defence forces. It's the attempt by the Assad regime to sectarianise the conflict and force the religious minorities to think of the revolution as a threat to their livelihoods and ability to live in Syria. This is especially the case since the Assad regime relies upon a patchwork of tribal, religious and a merchant class to survive. 

It's a free and fair election unless someone can prove otherwise and that has not been done.  By gassing his own people are you referring to the UK sponsored White Helmets faked Douma chemical attack as an example?  The one where a supposed victim of a gas attack, a young boy in fine health who later testified along with others that he was not a gas attack victim?  The one where no residue of a chemical attack could be found?  Yes, this is a RT video but western media only covers this matter from the perspective of Assad gases his own people narrative, no matter what evidence comes to light or not.

Shabiha is a grouping of Syrian Sunni militias but recently the name has been used for other militias as well, a rebranding if you will.

We hold different points of view and get our info from opposing forces and that's all good and well.  A quote from Mira Grant comes to mind, a thought shared in many a similar quote.

One man's gospel truth is another man's blasphemous lie

[Leeds Ram]

3 minutes ago, ramit said:

It's a free and fair election unless someone can prove otherwise and that has not been done.  By gassing his own people are you referring to the UK sponsored White Helmets faked Douma chemical attack as an example?  The one where a supposed victim of a gas attack, a young boy in fine health who later testified along with others that he was not a gas attack victim?  The one where no residue of a chemical attack could be found?  Yes, this is a RT video but western media only covers this matter from the perspective of Assad gases his own people narrative, no matter what evidence comes to light or not.

Shabiha is a grouping of Syrian Sunni militias but recently the name has been used for other militias as well, a rebranding if you will.

We hold different points of view and get our info from opposing forces and that's all good and well.  A quote from Mira Grant comes to mind, a thought shared in many a similar quote.

One man's gospel truth is another man's blasphemous lie

I'm not going to engage any further. There's no point in my view and nothing productive could come of it except me using some very angry and emotive language as well as posting videos of victims which are hideous to watch and people don't need to see. 

[ramit]

3 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'm not going to engage any further. There's no point in my view and nothing productive could come of it except me using some very angry and emotive language as well as posting videos of victims which are hideous to watch and people don't need to see. 

Judging by how quickly you responded, i gather you didn't even bother to watch the clip.  Fine.

If you are unable to debate the situation in Syria with me any further without resorting to expletives then yes, by all means do bow out, as abusive language is not allowed on this site, but to me at least that indicates not just an unwillingness, but an inability to prove your assertion that Assad gassed his own people and make no mistake about it fella, it is yours to prove if you make the accusation as you unwisely did.  Your bail out on the grounds of videos proving your assertion to be too extreme to be viewed is laughable at best. 

[jono]

54 minutes ago, ramit said:

Judging by how quickly you responded, i gather you didn't even bother to watch the clip.  Fine.

If you are unable to debate the situation in Syria with me any further without resorting to expletives then yes, by all means do bow out, as abusive language is not allowed on this site, but to me at least that indicates not just an unwillingness, but an inability to prove your assertion that Assad gassed his own people and make no mistake about it fella, it is yours to prove if you make the accusation as you unwisely did.  Your bail out on the grounds of videos proving your assertion to be too extreme to be viewed is laughable at best. 

And Putin wrestling Sharks ? 
 

The Middle East is corrupt beyond measure. It’s an area where east and west have proxy wars for oil and influence while the selfish rulers of various groupings in the gather the coin that super powers throw in that direction, for their own use; rather than that of their people. Assad is for Russia as Saddam was for the west. A bulwark against religious extremism and the influence of their opponent in the wider world. There really aren’t any winners but I’d addThe west for all its myriad faults works to different total standards. Would you really like Russian governance and moral rectitude in preference to ours ? Both deeply flawed, but I know my choice 

 

[ramit]

14 minutes ago, jono said:

And Putin wrestling Sharks ? 
 

The Middle East is corrupt beyond measure. It’s an area where east and west have proxy wars for oil and influence while the selfish rulers of various groupings in the gather the coin that super powers throw in that direction, for their own use; rather than that of their people. Assad is for Russia as Saddam was for the west. A bulwark against religious extremism and the influence of their opponent in the wider world. There really aren’t any winners but I’d addThe west for all its myriad faults works to different total standards. Would you really like Russian governance and moral rectitude in preference to ours ? Both deeply flawed, but I know my choice 

 

What, was Putin wrestling a shark bare chested now?

On this we can agree Jono, the Middle East is a pot that superpowers stir left and right.  i wish there were no superpowers, but of the one's existing i detest the American empire the most.  Not a word comes out of their mouths that is not a lie, be it Trump, Obama, Bush, or any of the other mouthpieces of this decrepit evil empire.  i am ashamed that Iceland bows to these criminals, these common thieves, these amoral elitists who use real people's lives, hopes and struggles as propaganda tools for their aspirations of more, always more and more into infinity.  i do like Putin, he is one clever cat and knows how to play chess.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend ya know and later if the Russians get too big for their breeches i will oppose them with the same ferocity as i do America.  i do not consider it patriotic to support IMO immoral powers that my government bows to, quite the opposite.

i like you Jono, you are a reasonable fellow, we don't agree on some things but i like your style man