Rev Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: Obviously there are a few, Vardy, Maddison and Watkins spring to mind, beyond that though I cant think of many. Dele Alli? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, cannable said: I can’t tell if you’re trying to bait the Jamie Vardy answer here or not… Or Maddison. Or Maguire. Or Tyrone Mings. Or Dele Alli. Or Kyle Walker. Or John Stones. Or Callum Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Just now, G STAR RAM said: Obviously there are a few, Vardy, Maddison and Watkins spring to mind, beyond that though I cant think of many. Dele Alli, Callum Wilson, Tarkowski, much of the Bournemouth side that went through the leagues, much of the current Sheffield United side, Adam Webster, Glen Murray, Tyrone Mings, Joe Gomez, Jonjo Shelvey I mean it depends on time-frame I guess, how low down the ladder they had to start and the parameters of success but that’s just a bunch I could think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Obviously there are a few, Vardy, Maddison and Watkins spring to mind, beyond that though I cant think of many. Joe hart, Antonio, Smalling, Bolasie, Inge, Derney, Austin, Gomez, Stones are a few I think meet your criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, GenBr said: Or Maddison. Or Maguire. Or Tyrone Mings. Or Dele Alli. Or Kyle Walker. Or John Stones. Or Callum Wilson. Didnt Macquire, Walker and Stones all start out as Championship players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, jimbobram said: Bielek has massive weight on his shoulders because if his fee. He will be judged more for his performances because of his fee. Not his fault but thats the way it is. I cant for the life of me understand the signing when we clearly was going to miss attacking options with the loss of Mount and Wilson. How was replacements for them not a priority. Im not saying the same quality because thats impossible, but we didn't even try and strengthen those positions. You’ve struck a chord there regarding lack of strategy. we knew all season that we’d be losing mount, Wilson, Bryson, and Johnson, and that we were weak on the flanks with Lawrence and jozefzoon, yet we didn’t manage to deliver a single attacking midfield permanent signing. I remember Mel saying that, in hindsight, loans were the answer when Hughes and Bryson got injured under clement. But that doesn’t mean that loans are the answer when we are trying to rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Didnt Macquire, Walker and Stones all start out as Championship players? Maguire played five times in Sheffield United’s relegation season before having three years in League One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Didnt Macquire, Walker and Stones all start out as Championship players? Maguire started at Shef Utd in April of the seasons they were relegated to League 1. He only made 5 appearances in the Championship that year before spending several seasons with them in League 1, but you are free to class him as a Championship player. You are correct about Stones and Walker, but I dont really think it disproves the fact that there are gems to be found further down the pyramid - Stones played in a team that finished 21st in the Championship twice whilst he was there. The Championships current top scorer started at Exeter. The second highest scorer started at a second tier Serbian side. Nakhi Wells only two off being top scorer started in the Bermudan leagues. There are dozens of players from lower leagues or weaker foreign leagues that have been successful in both the Prem and the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, GenBr said: Maguire started at Shef Utd in April of the seasons they were relegated to League 1. He only made 5 appearances in the Championship that year before spending several seasons with them in League 1, but you are free to class him as a Championship player. You are correct about Stones and Walker, but I dont really think it disproves the fact that there are gems to be found further down the pyramid - Stones played in a team that finished 21st in the Championship twice whilst he was there. The Championships current top scorer started at Exeter. The second highest scorer started at a second tier Serbian side. Nakhi Wells only two off being top scorer started in the Bermudan leagues. There are dozens of players from lower leagues or weaker foreign leagues that have been successful in both the Prem and the Championship. We did try to sign Ollie Watkins too, just couldn't/wouldn't meet the fee asked. Went to Brentford for less than half the amount we were quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @cannable @GenBr It's fair to say that those players quoted were not really scouted from lower league teams then. I'm not saying that there are not hidden gems in the lower leagues but I think the list of players that have big impacts at Championship and Premier League level is quite small. I'd say the fact that 3 of our players in Bogle, Holmes and Marriott have all come from lower league teams would suggest that our scouting of these divisions is probably not as bad as some would like to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 hours ago, TommyPowel said: At 22 wouldnt he fall into the remit of the Academy and would be competing against Hectar-Ingram? who incidentally came from West Ham Maybe but when I’ve seen him live I’ve always thought he just needs a break or the right club what I’m saying Tommy is that I believe there are players out there but we just don’t seem to get any gems ...if we had signed Watkins for example it may have worked it may not as the expectation would’ve been so much more here than at Brentford ...but give me Watkins over Mason Bennett any day ...what I’m saying is could better scouts have beaten Exeter to him ? I want our scouting system to be top dog ...why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: @cannable @GenBr It's fair to say that those players quoted were not really scouted from lower league teams then. I'm not saying that there are not hidden gems in the lower leagues but I think the list of players that have big impacts at Championship and Premier League level is quite small. I'd say the fact that 3 of our players in Bogle, Holmes and Marriott have all come from lower league teams would suggest that our scouting of these divisions is probably not as bad as some would like to think. Only two of those mentioned were not form lower leagues. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of others. The ones in my first post i picked solely from the England squad. The ones in my second post were the top scorers in the Championship. If we're counting players recruited from other teams youth setups like Bogle then the list is even longer. We paid a lot of money for Marriott - he won virtually every award Peterborough had to offer and scored a hell of a lot of goals for them - well done to the scouts for picking that one out. I will give them Holmes though - he was a good acquisition. We used to get great players from both abroad and the lower leagues who would fit what we are trying to do, but until recently we've just been wasting money on English players who come at a premium who happen to be <insert team here> player of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 15 minutes ago, GenBr said: Only two of those mentioned were not form lower leagues. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of others. The ones in my first post i picked solely from the England squad. The ones in my second post were the top scorers in the Championship. If we're counting players recruited from other teams youth setups like Bogle then the list is even longer. We paid a lot of money for Marriott - he won virtually every award Peterborough had to offer and scored a hell of a lot of goals for them - well done to the scouts for picking that one out. I will give them Holmes though - he was a good acquisition. We used to get great players from both abroad and the lower leagues who would fit what we are trying to do, but until recently we've just been wasting money on English players who come at a premium who happen to be <insert team here> player of the year. Fantastic post ...just this ...i couldn’t agree more ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontTrustTheDevilInside Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 13 hours ago, RamNut said: I'm not sure that the scouting team were responsible for any of lawrence, jozefzoon or camara. camara seemed to be paul Clement's choice rowett was mad for lawrence And frank seemed to have identified jozefzoon. If they aren't then they utterly are a waste of space and must be the only scouting team not to contribute to any transfer for a club in several years... 9 hours ago, ramsbottom said: In an alternative universe there is a Derby County scouting team that upon seeing that both Craig Bryson & Will Hughes would be out for a season, immediately found two quality season-long loans to replace them for practically nothing, instead of ham-stringing us for 4 years with Butterfield & Johnson. That £10m combined fee and subsequent wages have screwed us ever since. Johnson had his uses but was massively overpriced, as was Butterfield. Clement didn't help matters with his January splurge either... I think the vast majority of our fans would like to go back to those halcyon days of the hidden gems under Burley & Clough, unearthing the truffles amongst the crap. The Brayford's, Bryson's, The Reich's,, The Martin's The Idiakez's, the Osman's, the Buxton's. Ah the memories ? Even at the very top end of football, fee doesn't dictate talent. Give me a £500k Holmes over a £7m Bielik any day of the week. Very true point but to me a reflection of our options presented. No lower league potential gems who could fill in and then be back up, no loans they had contacts or sniffs of availability, no ideas from abroad who could come in as a cheap low risk gamble... Just nothing but obvious overpriced players 7 hours ago, jimbobram said: Bielek has massive weight on his shoulders because if his fee. He will be judged more for his performances because of his fee. Not his fault but thats the way it is. I cant for the life of me understand the signing when we clearly was going to miss attacking options with the loss of Mount and Wilson. How was replacements for them not a priority. Im not saying the same quality because thats impossible, but we didn't even try and strengthen those positions. Bielek was recognising an issue that has been ignored for 4-5 years. No plan b for thorne when in reality the signs were there that plan a was no longer viable... 7 hours ago, jimbobram said: They werent priority which they should have been. Paterson came in last second of the window. Not getting first choice target that dragged out... Cocus comments were consistently counting down how many targets but never naming players. We don't know if paterson was first choice or not I'm disappointed if he was our 18th. A championship journeyman that's never recorded consistent form at this level. 6 hours ago, TommyPowel said: We managed to sign Marriott along with Holmes also Luke Thomas now of Barnsley And apparent interest in Maddison from Peterborough. Oh of course the mighty Jake Buxton.and then there was Jeff Hendrix ,I am sure there would be more those are just a few of the top of my head . That record is pretty good over a period of time As many have already pointed out... Not really and inaccurate. Bogle was an academy scouting which no one has criticised as their success is plain to see. Didn't feature at lower leagues. Likewise with thomas Maddison who is publically available for 2.5 with a club who's owner has categorically denied any interest from Derby at a time communications between the club were definitely open... 6 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said: Rich man buys football club, step-son asks for a job, gives him a chance at a low level, we'd all do it. Maybe he's proven himself for what he brings to the club, rather than his family connection, and as part of his development is taken along on some scouting trips to observe and learn. Nothing weird in that scenario, especially in the world of football. Completely agree, several key problems with that scenario: 1. Its not a lower level position, head of.... And not an entry scouting position like at academy level. 2. This whole post proves he hasn't proven himself 3. Who is he observing and learning from? A great step father in this scenario would throw massive money to bring in a mentor to teach and guide him in his new career (what we've been pleading for!) 4. From what I can see he's not being very well managed. Analysing the scouting team he is there to find targets for the first team. At a large majority of games Morris is pictured at, he is standing next to him. What's he scouting the players we already have!? I'm pretty sure the occupying manager can scout a player of interest in the opposition team. A good scout should be putting in the hard miles building their's and with it the clubs knowledge of suitable players. 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: @cannable @GenBr Sorry couldn't delete that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Saity said: Maybe but when I’ve seen him live I’ve always thought he just needs a break or the right club what I’m saying Tommy is that I believe there are players out there but we just don’t seem to get any gems ...if we had signed Watkins for example it may have worked it may not as the expectation would’ve been so much more here than at Brentford ...but give me Watkins over Mason Bennett any day ...what I’m saying is could better scouts have beaten Exeter to him ? I want our scouting system to be top dog ...why not? maybe they saw and recommended Watkins but once theyve done that its out of their hands.We just dont know the full picture.But what i do know is that its possible for the scout to highly rate a player but the manager doesnt for some reason.We have an example on here with the Martin saga some adoring him other thinking he was finished and should be got rid off then there a Keogh fans and his knockers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontTrustTheDevilInside Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 13 hours ago, TommyPowel said: maybe they saw and recommended Watkins but once theyve done that its out of their hands.We just dont know the full picture.But what i do know is that its possible for the scout to highly rate a player but the manager doesnt for some reason.We have an example on here with the Martin saga some adoring him other thinking he was finished and should be got rid off then there a Keogh fans and his knockers If I was an experienced manager and a former managers son with no real experience or track record in the game & the owners son likewise were suggesting players to me I don't think I would take them much more seriously than any fan on this board or at a fan forum. Which is kind of my point! If the head was someone credible mentoring either of those players and vetting with their own experience what was coming through and managing them to search further afield as Leicester, Brentford etc have successfully done, we may actually start buying players for a reasonable price and not because they are obvious, agents/clubs are desperate to move them on or because someone else wanted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 34 minutes ago, DontTrustTheDevilInside said: If I was an experienced manager and a former managers son with no real experience or track record in the game & the owners son likewise were suggesting players to me I don't think I would take them much more seriously than any fan on this board or at a fan forum. Which is kind of my point! If the head was someone credible mentoring either of those players and vetting with their own experience what was coming through and managing them to search further afield as Leicester, Brentford etc have successfully done, we may actually start buying players for a reasonable price and not because they are obvious, agents/clubs are desperate to move them on or because someone else wanted them. Do you know for sure that is what happens right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresOnlyWanChope Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 22 hours ago, GenBr said: The problem is that we buy players and they play them in a completely different role to what they are suited for. Zoon is one of the few wingers we've actually bought and played in the right position. I don't care what anyone says, but Lawrence is a 10 - not a winger regardless of where he played for Ipswich. We played Johnson in virtually every position on the pitch during his time here. One of our managers used Will goddamn Hughes as a holding midfielder in several games. We play Waghorn as a winger as well when he would be far better in the middle, but due to our penchant for buying CAMs and strikers we dont really have much choice, because we dont have any wingers. Weimann is playing more of a striker role than a winger at Bristol and shockingly he is doing very well there. The couple of times we played him as a striker he did well as well. It doesn't matter who we bring in if we just play them willy nilly in any position we want. Good point. We don’t give players a chance in their preferred position. How many games did Blackman get as a striker ? Weimann? And the other examples you named like Hughes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 21/10/2019 at 15:32, cannable said: Egan who replaced Tarkowksi, who we should have gone for instead of Shackell. I don’t know about being a step ahead of Brentford, I’d at least take being on the same track. If we’re gonna be lazy with our recruitment at least sign players from them and other teams who try and play good football. We did. FloJo..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontTrustTheDevilInside Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 7 hours ago, TommyPowel said: Do you know for sure that is what happens right now? I said if I? That doesn't imply that I'm in some way in the know but I can't imagine rosenior or cocu taking advice from them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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