Nuwtfly Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 19/10/2019 at 22:44, Jayram said: Never said he should be sacked but the season is over already as we are going nowhere. We're six points off the play-offs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 45 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said: We're six points off the play-offs... We're also six points off the relegation zone. We're mid table. It's fair to say it's most likely that we're not going anywhere this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB_DCFC Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, KCG said: I just don't accept the nonsense being spouted that it would take a miracle worker to get these lot to play. On paper these lot should be good enough to at least get us in the top 6... I’m sorry but, what? Have you seen this team? Our best striker this season is a player who, previous to this season, scored 4 or 5 in 2 seasons (I love Chrissy but those are just the numbers). Marriott’s been injured most of the season. Our best winger is Lawrence, who is inconsistent to say the least. Waghorns a stop gap there. Our midfield Doesn't have a forward pass in it. again I really like Holmes but he isn’t creative in the traditional sense for that position, he’s much more of a carrier of the ball, which is more useful when you can supplement that with creativity from the rest of the midfield and wingers, something we don’t have at all at the moment. I really really like Bielik, but he isn’t a playmaker, he’ll break play up well but when you don’t have anyone to lay it off to, that’s a big problem. Bogle is easily top 6 quality. at left back we have decent options but not ‘at least top 6’ quality. Lowe could be that by the end of the season, but isn’t right now. As centre half, there a question marks around Clarke, and although I think he’ll come good, he hasn’t been top 6 quality at all. Davies is a good ‘kick it and head it’ centre half, but that style of defender is not the right player at all for Cocu. Also, he’s 34 and has recently been out injured for a year and is still coming back from that, so we don’t really know how good he is. And finally the Keeper, who I think isn’t as bad as many make out but is definitely not top 6 quality. I count 1 player who’s top 6 (and probably better) quality, and that’s our right back. This isn’t a scenario a la Mac1 where we need a better coach to unlock the side. There’s no Hughes, hendrick etc to spring into life. I’d say we’re slightly underperforming as a side but top 6 quality? Not for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wignall12 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, Andicis said: We're also six points off the relegation zone. We're mid table. It's fair to say it's most likely that we're not going anywhere this season. Wish everyone would quit overanalysing and being so goddamn impatient, and no I'm not having a pop at Andicis , it seems to be a general trend. How can we have stability if we go through Managers like a Donkey eating strawberries? . Anyone remember a certain Sir Alex Fergusson in his early days at Man Ure ? One game away from the chop, yet they gave him the benefit of the doubt. Anyone tell me what happened then ? Ok so we may finish lower than we hope for but I'd like to see the man given his proper chance. Stop with the hair trigger stuff !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampant Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Totally agree with LB_DCFC in the post above. I posted elsewhere that in terms of being a player a top three side would include it's just Bogle and - for goalscoring alone - Marriott for me. Patience and a few windows required to comprehensively reshape the squad and integrate as many of the youngsters as possible who Cocu thinks can step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, Wignall12 said: Wish everyone would quit overanalysing and being so goddamn impatient, and no I'm not having a pop at Andicis , it seems to be a general trend. How can we have stability if we go through Managers like a Donkey eating strawberries? . Anyone remember a certain Sir Alex Fergusson in his early days at Man Ure ? One game away from the chop, yet they gave him the benefit of the doubt. Anyone tell me what happened then ? Ok so we may finish lower than we hope for but I'd like to see the man given his proper chance. Stop with the hair trigger stuff !! Sir Alex Ferguson was a manger in a different time. And for every manager you stick with that brings success, there is those that continue to fail. We had Clough for 5 years. We could have stuck with him till now, we still wouldn't have gotten promoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, KCG said: I just don't accept the nonsense being spouted that it would take a miracle worker to get these lot to play. On paper these lot should be good enough to at least get us in the top 6.. The problem is our slow play, no movement, no cohesion, no pressing etc. This is down to Cocu's prefered style of play and lack of motivation skills. A lack of motivational skills doesn't win league titles, whatever country it's in. Well OK, maybe somewhere like India where even John Gregory can win titles, but not in one of the top 10 leagues in the world. Just because it's not working at the minute and you don't like the way he speaks doesn't mean the ability isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayram Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Nuwtfly said: We're six points off the play-offs... Might as well be 60 mate. We are going nowhere fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodleyRam Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Since Clough/Mac1 the squad has been stripped of assets and coherency in terms of playing style. We've replaced this with sub-par and scatter gun signings. Lampard was able to paper over that and get a little more consistency with some quality loans and a bit of luck with injuries. If Cocu is to succeed he needs time and support to implement a coherent playing style. He also needs full buy in from the players but it's clear they've struggled to deliver the style he wants consistently. We've chased and chased promotion since sacking Nigel. Sorry to say it but we've got to put in the hard work again and rebuild bottom up. Meantime we are going to get some wins, some draws and some defeats... Let's enjoy the wins, hope for more from the draws and keep some perspective with the losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wignall12 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Andicis said: Sir Alex Ferguson was a manger in a different time. And for every manager you stick with that brings success, there is those that continue to fail. We had Clough for 5 years. We could have stuck with him till now, we still wouldn't have gotten promoted. I think Cocu is a different animal to Clough Junior , more experienced, better contacts , give him his chance in the next transfer window , he must be seething under the surface, let him bring his own men in to play as he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Our squad looks and feels like Man Utd at the moment. There was a time when the Man Utd midfield was Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham. On Sunday it was Fred, McTominay and Perreira, but 1-11 it just smacked of bang average. (De Gea just about world class, Maguire ok but still, so so average). So where have all the world class players gone? Then I look at Derby and I just feel the same. If the most excitement I can get is hoping Bogle does something from RB then it’s a tough tough time. It’s weird as Mel has wasted, I mean invested tens of millions and what do we have to show for it? I honestly fear for the club right now. Maybe Mel has seen this and hence the need for investment but so many eggs are in the basket of needing Cocu to get it right. I wonder if Mel knew the football would have been this laboured and defensive he would have still gone for him. A few posters on here who knew him from Dutch football warned us and they are absolutely spot on correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Quote In Turkey, Cocu walked into chaos. Fenerbahçe were in debt to the tune of €600m and things ended in turmoil, with a club that has spent its entire history in the top division in an unfathomably precarious position, a point above the relegation zone when the Dutchman was sacked last October. Cocu’s arrival was supposed to usher in a new era under a new president, but things never clicked. The manager’s style of play was deemed dull, the language barrier was problematic (Cocu worked through a translator) and supporters felt short-changed in his efforts to make a connection with them. Yikes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, Wignall12 said: I think Cocu is a different animal to Clough Junior , more experienced, better contacts , give him his chance in the next transfer window , he must be seething under the surface, let him bring his own men in to play as he wants. Yes I would like to see what Philip could do with players who can interpret and deliver his style of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 hours ago, Andicis said: Sir Alex Ferguson was a manger in a different time. And for every manager you stick with that brings success, there is those that continue to fail. We had Clough for 5 years. We could have stuck with him till now, we still wouldn't have gotten promoted. Football is still fundamentally the same game when Fergie was starting out at Man Utd. I bet I can find more examples of managers who have become successful after more than one season at a club than you can find managers who were successful in their first season. To look exclusively at our division & oft quoted on here, Farke at Norwich and Hughton at Brighton had very ropey first seasons only to make the breakthrough in their 2nd seasons. Sean Dyche finished a very mediocre 11th with Burnley in his first season in charge, following season they went up & consigned us to the playoffs. I could go on.. We've taken a punt on a manager with a very good track record but with a very limited knowledge of this division & a worse squad than last year to boot. I accept the results are crap, that the performances are crap, that the whole thing looks a mess but he's been here 3 months. In the absence of green shoots here, you can only really look at his previous long term job for clues - again, a ropey first season at PSV & then it all came together for 3 league titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I've just watched the highlights on the app and our basic organisational structure is really poor atm. Players just seem to be running slowly around in random directions. No togetherness at all. We really look to be in a rut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wignall12 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 41 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I've just watched the highlights on the app and our basic organisational structure is really poor atm. Players just seem to be running slowly around in random directions. No togetherness at all. We really look to be in a rut. KEEP THE FAITH ! ............we will come through this , In Cocu we trust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said: To look exclusively at our division & oft quoted on here, Farke at Norwich and Hughton at Brighton had very ropey first seasons only to make the breakthrough in their 2nd seasons. Sean Dyche finished a very mediocre 11th with Burnley in his first season in charge, following season they went up & consigned us to the playoffs. I could go on.. You could go on, but I could go on about managers with bad first seasons that carried on to be poo. I understand people are saying it to be positive, I just don't think it's a compelling point, there are probably more that went to poo after the first year than came good. 1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said: We've taken a punt on a manager with a very good track record but with a very limited knowledge of this division & a worse squad than last year to boot. I accept the results are crap, that the performances are crap, that the whole thing looks a mess but he's been here 3 months. In the absence of green shoots here, you can only really look at his previous long term job for clues - again, a ropey first season at PSV & then it all came together for 3 league titles. Which is a reasonable stance to take, I'm glad that you're accepting things as they currently are, I do think though that reputation only carries so much weight. Highly rated Dutch managers have come to England before, and they've failed before. He had a ropey first season at PSV and turned it around, but his ropey first season at Fenerbahce got him fired. Where do we fit into this, and just how ropey can we allow it to get? 1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said: Football is still fundamentally the same game when Fergie was starting out at Man Utd. I bet I can find more examples of managers who have become successful after more than one season at a club than you can find managers who were successful in their first season. That's not really a fair argument, and depends how you define success. My point was, in today's day and age, you don't get a long time as a manager. Those days are gone. If you don't hit the ground running, you've got your work cut out for you. I can name you more managers that started well and continued to succeed than you can name managers that started badly and turned it around, I would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 We just need a reliable, proven quality Goalie, Scott Carson f'rinstance, oh, hang on!........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaside Sam Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 18 hours ago, LB_DCFC said: I’m sorry but, what? Have you seen this team? Our best striker this season is a player who, previous to this season, scored 4 or 5 in 2 seasons (I love Chrissy but those are just the numbers). Marriott’s been injured most of the season. Our best winger is Lawrence, who is inconsistent to say the least. Waghorns a stop gap there. Our midfield Doesn't have a forward pass in it. again I really like Holmes but he isn’t creative in the traditional sense for that position, he’s much more of a carrier of the ball, which is more useful when you can supplement that with creativity from the rest of the midfield and wingers, something we don’t have at all at the moment. I really really like Bielik, but he isn’t a playmaker, he’ll break play up well but when you don’t have anyone to lay it off to, that’s a big problem. Bogle is easily top 6 quality. at left back we have decent options but not ‘at least top 6’ quality. Lowe could be that by the end of the season, but isn’t right now. As centre half, there a question marks around Clarke, and although I think he’ll come good, he hasn’t been top 6 quality at all. Davies is a good ‘kick it and head it’ centre half, but that style of defender is not the right player at all for Cocu. Also, he’s 34 and has recently been out injured for a year and is still coming back from that, so we don’t really know how good he is. And finally the Keeper, who I think isn’t as bad as many make out but is definitely not top 6 quality. I count 1 player who’s top 6 (and probably better) quality, and that’s our right back. This isn’t a scenario a la Mac1 where we need a better coach to unlock the side. There’s no Hughes, hendrick etc to spring into life. I’d say we’re slightly underperforming as a side but top 6 quality? Not for me absolutely spot on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Andicis said: Which is a reasonable stance to take, I'm glad that you're accepting things as they currently are, I do think though that reputation only carries so much weight. Highly rated Dutch managers have come to England before, and they've failed before. He had a ropey first season at PSV and turned it around, but his ropey first season at Fenerbahce got him fired. Where do we fit into this, and just how ropey can we allow it to get? I guess the best reply to that is that he didn't get a season - he was sacked in October. They were undoubtedly struggling but it would appear he was facing a revolt from local coaches in his backroom team - very difficult to get results in that timeframe with that kind of internal discord at the club. Could he have turned it around? We'll never know but I guess that's my point with him here at Derby, it'd be typical of us to get rid & for him to be successful elsewhere. Looking back into our own history, Cloughie's team in early 68/69 were still not firing until Willie Carlin arrived. And Jim Smith's team were definitely struggling until Stimac was bought. I'm not necessarily projecting that Rooney will fill that role with us but my point is things can change very quickly with a key addition or a subtle tactical change. Cocu is a smart guy & his time at PSV gives me confidence he'll figure it out. Just on your point re Dutch coaches, I don't think you can necessarily compare Cocu to his countrymen - de Boer & Koeman will be different characters with different outlooks - we can only judge him on his own merits. How ropey can we allow it to get? I don't believe we should accept a bottom 6 place but midtable (which is where we are) isn't a disaster. I accept it feels disappointing after our consistent 6th placed finishes (and Forest doing well won't help with some of our lot) but maybe a short term expectation downgrade might be good for everyone at the club long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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