PodgeyRam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, maxjam said: Agree. I personally don't think they should have played until both the police and club investigations had concluded but technically they are innocent until proved guilty so don't feel as though MM has bought shame on himself/the club/whatever. Let's be honest though, they will in all likelihood be found guilty. You only get charged with drink driving if you fail the breathalyser test which is a good as an admission of guilt. If they had refused it they would've been charged with failing to provide a sample. I'd reckon the police investigation is already done, we're just waiting for our country's overburdened court system to get around to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Cocu says in his post match interview that the disciplinary process will continue alongside this re-integration into the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said: Let's be honest though, they will in all likelihood be found guilty. You only get charged with drink driving if you fail the breathalyser test which is a good as an admission of guilt. If they had refused it they would've been charged with failing to provide a sample. I'd reckon the police investigation is already done, we're just waiting for our country's overburdened court system to get around to them. In all likelihood they will and in all probability they will get fined/banned/have to attend a drink driving course, then face some club action. Like it or not, it will have been dealt with. If they show genuine remorse and keep their noses clean from then on, I'll personally let them get on with their lives and careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Durden Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, PodgeyRam said: Let's be honest though, they will in all likelihood be found guilty. You only get charged with drink driving if you fail the breathalyser test which is a good as an admission of guilt. If they had refused it they would've been charged with failing to provide a sample. I'd reckon the police investigation is already done, we're just waiting for our country's overburdened court system to get around to them. That statement is so wrong. The police breathalyser is notoriously set on the low sign so any signs of alcohol will give a positive reading, the evidential breathalyser at the police station is the one which is used to determine whether a person is over the drink drive limit or not results of which will be submitted as part of the prosecution. I believe that legally the police have to take the lower of the two readings on the evidential breath test as the reading which will be used to determine whether the person is indeed over the drink drive limit so one could submit a breath test over the drink drive limit but if the second one was under then the person would have to be dearrested and not be able to be changed for drink driving offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 15 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Fair point. But, for me, the court case is external from the club. The club will know exactly what happened and, providing they don’t go to jail, the outcome of the case shouldn’t affect the club’s decisions. Almost swerved but not quite ,, club or court both ,there is a process , now your youthful ideal of putting rehabilitation ahead of punishment is great in theory and i would love it if that approach worked and the world could be a lovey Dovey much better place but the truth is that’s not how it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeram Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, IslandExile said: Cocu says in his post match interview that the disciplinary process will continue alongside this re-integration into the team. That's rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Archied said: Almost swerved but not quite ,, club or court both ,there is a process , now your youthful ideal of putting rehabilitation ahead of punishment is great in theory and i would love it if that approach worked and the world could be a lovey Dovey much better place but the truth is that’s not how it works I might be naive in assuming that they’ve already learnt their lesson. I’m just going off Cocu’s decision though, which indicates to me that they’ve done just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PodgeyRam Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said: That statement is so wrong. The police breathalyser is notoriously set on the low sign so any signs of alcohol will give a positive reading, the evidential breathalyser at the police station is the one which is used to determine whether a person is over the drink drive limit or not results of which will be submitted as part of the prosecution. I believe that legally the police have to take the lower of the two readings on the evidential breath test as the reading which will be used to determine whether the person is indeed over the drink drive limit so one could submit a breath test over the drink drive limit but if the second one was under then the person would have to be dearrested and not be able to be changed for drink driving offence. I suspect we're talking semantics here. When I say police breathalyser, I mean the one they use as evidence, ie. the one at the station. The preliminary breathalyser (the one used roadside) would be used to determine whether another evidential breathalyser test should be taken at the station. So you could blow as having alcohol in your system roadside, but if you're under the limit, it's not beyond the realms of possibility the police would let you go without taking you into the station. Like you say in the second paragraph, if you blow a positive but have dipped below the limit by the time you get to the station you get dearrested. It happens surprisingly often. Which is why I'm pretty certain they'll both be found guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: I might be naive in assuming that they’ve already learnt their lesson. I’m just going off Cocu’s decision though, which indicates to me that they’ve done just that. We obviously have very different life experiences ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 Do we want to hang them or teach them a lesson? Maybe they're feeling exactly what they should be feeling. Maybe playing football is the lifeline for them. You just don't know the players. This isn't going to go away for them. This is a real pile of poo they are in. Watching them play tonight made it look like it's been forgiven and that they are now free to go back to their happy little world. But maybe tonight is just something they need to face what's coming. I dunno. I'm just not into stamping people into the dirt. They could have killed somebody but they didn't. They should be know that. They should know exactly what they've done. But if they know and they truly understand then what do you do with them now? Bin them? What would you do if it was two real people in your real life that have fecked up this badly? If they were broken would you kick them while down? I can understand the anger. Definitely. But I can also see for Derby it's a personal situation and we are quite distant from it. Right from the start I haven't cared what happened to them and I still don't. That includes if they play on. Just don't feel in a position to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Millenniumram said: Said the other day MM didn’t deserve to be in this situation and I felt sorry for him. May have to withdraw such a statement if this is how he handles it what?do you mean by giving the manager full control over team selection etc? didnt some blame Morris for interfering with the manager at one point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said: That statement is so wrong. The police breathalyser is notoriously set on the low sign so any signs of alcohol will give a positive reading, the evidential breathalyser at the police station is the one which is used to determine whether a person is over the drink drive limit or not results of which will be submitted as part of the prosecution. I believe that legally the police have to take the lower of the two readings on the evidential breath test as the reading which will be used to determine whether the person is indeed over the drink drive limit so one could submit a breath test over the drink drive limit but if the second one was under then the person would have to be dearrested and not be able to be changed for drink driving offence. The police breathalyser is not set notoriously low.In fact the roadside breathtest (which is calibrated at least monthly to ensure their reliability and accuracy)is pretty much as accurate as you can be and plans were in motion to dispense with the station procedure altogether but it seems to have fallen by the wayside for some reason. Whatever.....The station procedure does involve taking the lowest reading as the benchmark and if over,that is the one that will be utilised in respect of the charge sheet. By the way,you are only charged if you blow 5mg over the legal limit of 35mg in 100ml of breath,(so 40 and over)so there's no question of being of very slightly over the limit. I doubt,in view of the fact that both are attending court and not re-attending the police station that any further testing such as blood tests or drugs tests are not taking place and I would suspect that both maybe submitting guilty pleas as a result. That will stop the whole thing bring dragged out further and hopefully both will be dealt with at the next court date. I would suspect if they do guilty plead guilty it may have been taken into account by the club too which may have assisted in their playing for the club tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 1 minute ago, TommyPowel said: what?do you mean by giving the manager full control over team selection etc? didnt some blame Morris for interfering with the manager at one point? Keep seeing this sort of comment and I can’t believe some people can’t see the difference in situations here. What we’re talking about is two employees of Derby county being under CRIMINAL investigation. It is therefore the duty of the owner of the business, MM, to suspend said individuals until the investigation is concluded, simple as. This isn’t about selecting a team for the manager, this is about making individuals unavailable for non footballing reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Keep seeing this sort of comment and I can’t believe some people can’t see the difference in situations here. What we’re talking about is two employees of Derby county being under CRIMINAL investigation. It is therefore the duty of the owner of the business, MM, to suspend said individuals until the investigation is concluded, simple as. This isn’t about selecting a team for the manager, this is about making individuals unavailable for non footballing reasons. 4 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Keep seeing this sort of comment and I can’t believe some people can’t see the difference in situations here. What we’re talking about is two employees of Derby county being under CRIMINAL investigation. It is therefore the duty of the owner of the business, MM, to suspend said individuals until the investigation is concluded, simple as. This isn’t about selecting a team for the manager, this is about making individuals unavailable for non footballing reasons. two employees of Derby county being under CRIMINAL investigation. That is where youre argument falls apart,What happened to innocent until proved guilty? come back after the court case and after Derby County announce their punishment of Lawrence and Bennett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, TommyPowel said: two employees of Derby county being under CRIMINAL investigation. That is where youre argument falls apart,What happened to innocent until proved guilty? come back after the court case and after Derby County announce their punishment of Lawrence and Bennett Think innocent until proven guilty goes out the question when you fail a breath test. It’s pretty damn conclusive. But putting that to one side, if any employee is under criminal investigation, then they should be suspended until we know the outcome. You can’t let someone under that cloud represent you. If theyre found innocent, then obviously pay them what they’re owed, and let them return as normal. If not, the fire them/suitably punish them. Fairly simple for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IslandExile Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/phillip-cocu-recalled-tom-lawrence-3387299 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Another PR own goal for the club. Have we had so many that we are simply immune to the effects? With such issues of morality, you can’t please everyone. But it tells you everything when suspending both players until further notice would have upset absolutely no-one - a simpler decision I couldn’t imagine. Suspending these players for just one game will upset people. It sends out the wrong message. It trivialises reckless criminal behaviour. It sets poor standards. And ultimately, the players learn nothing. They are still able to do what they know and love. The club looks soft and it gives you the impression that they are not taking the matter seriously when they are effectively putting endangering lives by drink driving on a par with getting two yellow cards in a game. A non-event, a non-issue in their eyes. Some might say it’s not the club’s responsibility to be judge, jury and executioner. But it is the club’s responsibility to set standards, to show what they will tolerate and what they expect from players representing their club. To me, playing professional football and playing for and representing Derby County is a huge privilege. If someone abuses that privilege, you take it away. You give it back when that person has taken steps to atone for their behaviour and when that person shows that they value that privilege and deserve that privilege. Has that happened in the space of a week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 In response to the idea that the club played the players as a way of supporting the players through this difficult time, I just don’t buy it. You want to support them? Take them out of the spotlight. Take them out of the firing line. Bring in psychologists. Give them compassionate leave. Send them on drink driving awareness courses. Give them time to resolve their issues. How is putting them back into the match day squad after one game helping them to rehabilitate in any way? What will they learn? How will they be humbled? If anything, it will just reinforce the idea that they are untouchable. How will a fine affect a footballer with untold riches? How will a driving ban affect them when they can afford to hire a driver? How will community service affect a footballer who will still have more free time than your average man on the street? Now if you stop them from doing what they live, what they breathe, what they know and love, something might click in their heads. The club had the chance to really hit home a message. How must Jozefzoon have felt hearing the team news, I wonder? And those who were left out of the 18? I wouldn’t have been impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnyhill60 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 47 minutes ago, Jourdan said: In response to the idea that the club played the players as a way of supporting the players through this difficult time, I just don’t buy it. You want to support them? Take them out of the spotlight. Take them out of the firing line. Bring in psychologists. Give them compassionate leave. Send them on drink driving awareness courses. Give them time to resolve their issues. How is putting them back into the match day squad after one game helping them to rehabilitate in any way? What will they learn? How will they be humbled? If anything, it will just reinforce the idea that they are untouchable. How will a fine affect a footballer with untold riches? How will a driving ban affect them when they can afford to hire a driver? How will community service affect a footballer who will still have more free time than your average man on the street? Now if you stop them from doing what they live, what they breathe, what they know and love, something might click in their heads. The club had the chance to really hit home a message. How must Jozefzoon have felt hearing the team news, I wonder? And those who were left out of the 18? I wouldn’t have been impressed. Well I would have expected to be dropped having delivered so little in the many chances I have been given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 hour ago, sunnyhill60 said: Well I would have expected to be dropped having delivered so little in the many chances I have been given Unlike tom lawrence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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