England v Bulgaria

[rynny]

8 hours ago, Sexydadbod said:

Yep, currently we have Trent, Trippier, AWB, Walker at right back, then the ones just below that like Max Aarons, Reece James, Steven sessengon, Ryan fredericks.  Maitland Niles  and Walker-Peters are starting most weeks for Arsenal and spurs respectively too. Lots of options for now and the future

Ryan Fredericks? The 26 year old who has never been mentioned of a call and up? Also

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7132281/Steve-Clarke-plots-converting-Che-Adams-Ryan-Fredericks-Harvey-Barnes-play-Scotland.html

Steven Sessengon? Played for games for Fulham but is ahead of Bogle? 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Why should I have to mention it's my opinion? It's very clearly my opinion, it's a subjective and not a factual argument, therefore I shouldn't have to state it's my opinion beforehand when it's insinuated.

Well there is some basis to go on. How our players perform for their clubs, vs how the players of other countries perform for their clubs. Germany and Italy aren't exactly powerhouses anymore, they're both in the rebuilding phases. England has nothing to fear from either. Croatia is full of aging players who are starting to drop off. Depay isn't good enough up front and is a glaring weakness for the Netherlands. Italy don't have much world class talent within their ranks. Germany have Sane who's injured, Reus who's injury prone, a weak back four, and a midfield sorely lacking. 

France and Belgium have better squads than us, and should rightfully be contenders, but Spain, Portugal and the rest have weaker squads than us. If we're managed properly, we should be getting semis. A quarter final is a step backwards, why should we be happy with that? Isn't Southgate supposed to be progressing? 

I am just being realistic with where we are. We are strong, we are competitive, we are improving, but we still have plenty to prove. We have to prove these past two semi final appearances were not mere anomalies.

I would say we are comfortably one of the top 8 teams in Europe, so the quarter finals is a reasonable expectation. Of course, we should be ambitious and aim for the semi finals and beyond but we have to respect that there are sides out there who can cause us problems on their day, and tournament football by it’s nature doesn’t always stick to the script.

So that’s why I say we should get to the quarter finals and take stock from there. It is a difficult competition to navigate.

If we were to name the favourites for Euro 2020 and took a poll of 100 posters, the majority of us would have completely different answers.

For me, I would have France, Belgium and Portugal as the front runners with Spain, ourselves, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands in the pack behind and that pack you could probably split by a hair.

2022 or 2024 are far more realistic targets.

[Andicis]

11 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I am just being realistic with where we are. We are strong, we are competitive, we are improving, but we still have plenty to prove. We have to prove these past two semi final appearances were not mere anomalies.

I would say we are comfortably one of the top 8 teams in Europe, so the quarter finals is a reasonable expectation. Of course, we should be ambitious and aim for the semi finals and beyond but we have to respect that there are sides out there who can cause us problems on their day, and tournament football by it’s nature doesn’t always stick to the script.

So that’s why I say we should get to the quarter finals and take stock from there. It is a difficult competition to navigate.

If we were to name the favourites for Euro 2020 and took a poll of 100 posters, the majority of us would have completely different answers.

For me, I would have France, Belgium and Portugal as the front runners with Spain, ourselves, Italy, Germany and the Netherlands in the pack behind and that pack you could probably split by a hair.

2022 or 2024 are far more realistic targets.

But by the time we get to 2022, people will be saying it's too soon then. It's always too soon, until it isn't. Harry Kane is 26 now, he's got 3 tournaments left at most at the top level, we don't have a striker coming in to replace him. 

Which international sides don't have something to prove? What has Belgium proved? An ability to consistently underperform? What has Italy and Germany done recently to be banded in with us? I think you're putting them in from name alone.

I can see your points, but I don't agree. I think it's far too easy to say top 8 is good enough, but it's not ambitious enough. We shouldn't be accepting less than semi finals. If we accept mediocrity, how are we ever going to raise our standards?

[Sexydadbod]

10 hours ago, rynny said:

Ryan Fredericks? The 26 year old who has never been mentioned of a call and up? Also

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-7132281/Steve-Clarke-plots-converting-Che-Adams-Ryan-Fredericks-Harvey-Barnes-play-Scotland.html

Steven Sessengon? Played for games for Fulham but is ahead of Bogle? 

Fredericks plays week in, week out in the premier league under a top quality manager. Of course it’s unlikely he will get an England call up but any English player who plays week in week out in the premier league will be in with a shot, especially if that club is in good form.  And steven sessengon is already in the England u21 squad unlike Bogle. I wouldn’t say it’s controversial by that token to suggest he’s currently ahead in the pecking order

[Sexydadbod]

10 hours ago, Andicis said:

Why should I have to mention it's my opinion? It's very clearly my opinion, it's a subjective and not a factual argument, therefore I shouldn't have to state it's my opinion beforehand when it's insinuated.

Well there is some basis to go on. How our players perform for their clubs, vs how the players of other countries perform for their clubs. Germany and Italy aren't exactly powerhouses anymore, they're both in the rebuilding phases. England has nothing to fear from either. Croatia is full of aging players who are starting to drop off. Depay isn't good enough up front and is a glaring weakness for the Netherlands. Italy don't have much world class talent within their ranks. Germany have Sane who's injured, Reus who's injury prone, a weak back four, and a midfield sorely lacking. 

France and Belgium have better squads than us, and should rightfully be contenders, but Spain, Portugal and the rest have weaker squads than us. If we're managed properly, we should be getting semis. A quarter final is a step backwards, why should we be happy with that? Isn't Southgate supposed to be progressing? 

You say we shouldn’t fear them but would they fear us? I don’t think any top international side would fear another. Germany may not be the force they were but they are still a top side- they won the confederations cup with pretty much a young b side. Their struggles at the World Cup was because they played players who were old and past their best, since their Loew has got rid of many of them. As @Jourdan said, international football is so tight that no top team can really be so arrogant to think they’re better than other top teams, anything can happen in a knock out tie, all it takes is a red card to occur at any moment then the game would swing. And you mentioned Netherlands and Spain, both whom battered us if we look at the statistics so it’s pretty arrogant to dismiss them.They had 53 shots between them in the games we have recently played against them, poor finishing let them down whereas England were very clinical. We beat Spain in Seville, but that was due to a lot of help from the referee and due to clinical finishing- Spain should have had at least one penalty and Pickford should have been sent off. It would be silly to write those teams off. I wouldn’t say we have a particularly stronger squad than Portugal either, Portugal’s bench the other day was ridiculous with the likes of Joao felix, Ruben Neves, Joao Cancelo, Joao Moutinho, Diogo Jota.

Squads don’t really matter in international tournaments anyway in such a small format in contrast to a long season where squads would matter more. I think every top international side can say they have good squads though.

[Ghost of Clough]

16 minutes ago, Sexydadbod said:

And steven sessengon is already in the England u21 squad unlike Bogle. I wouldn’t say it’s controversial by that token to suggest he’s currently ahead in the pecking order

I don't think you can jump to that conclusion. Sessegnon had played for England at every age group and has earned his U21 call-up due to merit on international duty. He also has hardly kicked a ball in professional football so is still 'fresh'
Bogle almost came from nowhere before playing for our first team. He started off slowly hence no early call-up last season. Then when he started to hit some form, was judged to be playing often enough for Derby, and to avoid burnout/fatigue didn't get called up.

U21 apps dont really suggest how close a player is to the first team. Mount only has 4 U21 apps, whereas players like Mancienne and Muamba have more than 30.

[Andicis]

3 hours ago, Sexydadbod said:

You say we shouldn’t fear them but would they fear us? I don’t think any top international side would fear another. Germany may not be the force they were but they are still a top side- they won the confederations cup with pretty much a young b side. Their struggles at the World Cup was because they played players who were old and past their best, since their Loew has got rid of many of them. As @Jourdan said, international football is so tight that no top team can really be so arrogant to think they’re better than other top teams, anything can happen in a knock out tie, all it takes is a red card to occur at any moment then the game would swing. And you mentioned Netherlands and Spain, both whom battered us if we look at the statistics so it’s pretty arrogant to dismiss them.They had 53 shots between them in the games we have recently played against them, poor finishing let them down whereas England were very clinical. We beat Spain in Seville, but that was due to a lot of help from the referee and due to clinical finishing- Spain should have had at least one penalty and Pickford should have been sent off. It would be silly to write those teams off. I wouldn’t say we have a particularly stronger squad than Portugal either, Portugal’s bench the other day was ridiculous with the likes of Joao felix, Ruben Neves, Joao Cancelo, Joao Moutinho, Diogo Jota.

Squads don’t really matter in international tournaments anyway in such a small format in contrast to a long season where squads would matter more. I think every top international side can say they have good squads though.

I really don't rate much about Germany's current team. Obviously they have a few talented players coming through such as Kai Havertz etc but in current form, they aren't much for England to worry about. They had to play the players past their best, because they don't have the talent to adequately replace. It's a two way street. 

Of course in a knock out tie anything can happen. 

I don't think they're better than us, though. I think Southgate got his tactics wrong in both games. The Netherlands are getting a good young core, but they still have positions where they are very exploitable. The lack of a proper striker is a big one. Spain are alright. But they also haven't had much success in recent years and seem to be dropping off. I think our squad is better than Portugal's. 

I think we just have different opinions on it. The likes of Germany, Spain, the Netherlands are all decent, but I think if we can't beat them we're just not good enough. I can't see any of them winning the Euros in a world where France and Belgium are still about. 

[rynny]

4 hours ago, Sexydadbod said:

Fredericks plays week in, week out in the premier league under a top quality manager. Of course it’s unlikely he will get an England call up but any English player who plays week in week out in the premier league will be in with a shot, especially if that club is in good form.  And steven sessengon is already in the England u21 squad unlike Bogle. I wouldn’t say it’s controversial by that token to suggest he’s currently ahead in the pecking order

Fredericks plays week in week out? Played 18 times last season in all competitions and was linked with a loan back to the Championship ?‍♂️

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

Fredericks plays week in week out? Played 18 times last season in all competitions and was linked with a loan back to the Championship ?‍♂️

Played in 15 premier league games last season. Reason he didn’t play as much was because he was injured ?‍♂️He’s Started every game so far this season

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, Sexydadbod said:

Played in 15 premier league games last season. Reason he didn’t play as much was because he was injured ?‍♂️He’s Started every game so far this season

12 starts, subbed off 3 times

Subbed on 3 times

Sat on the bench 8 times

Injured for 14 games (Injured from mid November to late mid Jan)

Didn’t make the squad 1 time. 

[rynny]

11 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

12 starts, subbed off 3 times

Subbed on 3 times

Sat on the bench 8 times

Injured for 14 games (Injured from mid November to late mid Jan)

Didn’t make the squad 1 time. 

But other than that he starts week in week out 

[Sexydadbod]

33 minutes ago, rynny said:

But other than that he starts week in week out 

He’s Started every  league game this season... He wasn’t at the start of last season because Pellegrini wanted experience with Zabaleta before Fredericks took zabaleta’s place, like Bogle with Andre wisdom. He was injured for three months last season but was back in the team at the end of the last season including their win away v spurs  ?‍♂️.

You’re  moving away from the original point, England have lots of right backs so it will be very hard-impossible for Bogle to get an England spot. Fredericks is the premier league playing under one of the best managers in European football who clearly rates him- yet is nowhere near the squad. 

[Sexydadbod]

21 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I don't think you can jump to that conclusion. Sessegnon had played for England at every age group and has earned his U21 call-up due to merit on international duty. He also has hardly kicked a ball in professional football so is still 'fresh'
Bogle almost came from nowhere before playing for our first team. He started off slowly hence no early call-up last season. Then when he started to hit some form, was judged to be playing often enough for Derby, and to avoid burnout/fatigue didn't get called up.

U21 apps dont really suggest how close a player is to the first team. Mount only has 4 U21 apps, whereas players like Mancienne and Muamba have more than 30.

The system is completely different to when Mancienne and Muamba were playing since Southgate took charge. It’s more likely Steven sessengon will get an England call up before Bogle imo. And I doubt steven sessengon will ever get an England first team call up either- Trent, Awb, Reece James, Max Aarons, Walker-Peters and Maitland Niles are all around the same age as Bogle so will be ahead in the pecking order because they’re all in the top league , and that’s ignoring the older players like trippier and walker who will be around the squad I imagine for another 4 years or so. In tournament football they only ever take 2 right backs maximum with the 23 squad limit

[rynny]

51 minutes ago, Sexydadbod said:

He’s Started every  league game this season... He wasn’t at the start of last season because Pellegrini wanted experience with Zabaleta before Fredericks took zabaleta’s place, like Bogle with Andre wisdom. He was injured for three months last season but was back in the team at the end of the last season including their win away v spurs  ?‍♂️.

You’re  moving away from the original point, England have lots of right backs so it will be very hard-impossible for Bogle to get an England spot. Fredericks is the premier league playing under one of the best managers in European football who clearly rates him- yet is nowhere near the squad. 

I know England have some very good right backs, I questioned you over 2 of those that you said, and my original points were that Fredericks is 26 and hasn't been a regular starter at West Ham from when he signed just over 12 months ago, yes he has started more games recently but it is still doesn't take away from the fact that he has only played around half of West Ham's games in that time. His opportunity for an England call up now is very slim, where as Bogle has plenty of time to force his way into the set up. Under Southgate I believe he would rather choose a player that can play for the next 10 or so years than a player that could play for 4 years.

Sessengon has played 8 games in men's football, he may have been called up to the England under 21s before Bogle but how much of that is down to what teams they both play for to start with? Sessegnon was at a Prem team growing up and Bogle was at Swindon. Straight away he has an advantage. 

[Ghost of Clough]

57 minutes ago, Sexydadbod said:

The system is completely different to when Mancienne and Muamba were playing since Southgate took charge. It’s more likely Steven sessengon will get an England call up before Bogle imo. And I doubt steven sessengon will ever get an England first team call up either- Trent, Awb, Reece James, Max Aarons, Walker-Peters and Maitland Niles are all around the same age as Bogle so will be ahead in the pecking order because they’re all in the top league , and that’s ignoring the older players like trippier and walker who will be around the squad I imagine for another 4 years or so. In tournament football they only ever take 2 right backs maximum with the 23 squad limit

Wan-Bisakka, Alexander-Arnold, and Maitland-Niles are undoubtedly well ahead of Bogle due to playing for top PL sides and performing well.

Looking at the ages, I wouldn't necessarily say they're "the same age"....
Walker-Peters - 22 ( April 1997)
Maitland Niles - 22 (August 1997)
AWB - 21 (Nov 1997)
TAA - 20 (Oct 1998)
Sessegnon - 19 (May 2000)
Reece James - 19 (Dec 1999)
Max Aarons - 19 ( Jan 2000)
Bogle - younger than all of them, 19 (July 2000).

Excluding the 3 mentioned at the start, I find it hard to say for certain the rest are definitely ahead. 2 have barely played at PL level and non have as much experience as Bogle despite being older.
Walker-Peters - 12 league apps since his league debut in 17/18. 5 assists.
Sessegnon - 4 league apps
Reece James - Ever present for Wigan, in which 1/3 of his games were in midfield. 6 goals/assists when he was their main set-piece taker.
Max Aarons - 41 apps in the Championship and voted into the team of the year due to being in a team which earned promotion, despite Bogle (and probably others) being statistically better. 4 apps since in the PL as part of the worst defence by far. 8 goals/assists.
Bogle - 45 league apps with 12 goals/assists.

 

Walker and Trippier will be out of the international picture before Bogle turns 23