One Step Back, Two Steps Forward.

[BBG83]

My thoughts re. Cocu and how his brain is working right now are;

1. He has no intention of promotion this season. Because if we did, the money and squad isn’t there to stay, equalling another miserable season. Most fans are way too impatient to look beyond the next result.

2. He wants the majority of the squad out. He’s trying to upset them by calling them out and replacing them with youth.

3. He’s using youth for the above but also trying to develop them to either generate money or first team players.

4. He’s intentionally playing players out of position to stress them and make them better. I suspect it’s a common tactic at Dutch clubs who have a ridiculous history of developing young players and making foreign players better. It’s almost a school of football.

5. He trusts Keogh and Huddlestone because they’re literally the only senior players we have with experience and a will to help others. Regardless of their ability they vocally help and encourage. Best of a bad bunch.

6. The players aren’t intelligent enough for him and until he replaces with better models we will look confused, because the players are actually confused. They’re also too comfortable on their wage and achieving nothing every season.

7. There’s an element of him exposing how bad the squad is to say to Mel ‘I need some funds in January’.

8. He’s making us look a bit less glam so we don’t get screwed in the transfer windows. He wants something better than Butterfield for £4m.

9. He plays some players out of position to improve them. Lowe has to use his right foot occasionally. Holmes may now be a little more defensively aware down his right hand side.

10. We may flirt with relegation but only till January. Rooney won’t accept a lack of effort. And new signings will arrive.

That’s just my take on it. I do believe Cocu is quality and probably more old school than people are now used to or will to be patient with.

Don’t be fooled by the Lampard Season. It wasn’t that great - it just had a twist in Leeds. The bounce papers over the fact that he too, played Bennett up front alone and kept Marriott on the bench at Wembley. And we also relied too heavily on players who were never in a million years going to be a long term addition to Derby County.

[cosmic]

3 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

2. He wants the majority of the squad out. He’s trying to upset them by calling them out and replacing them with youth.

4. He’s intentionally playing players out of position to stress them and make them better. I suspect it’s a common tactic at Dutch clubs who have a ridiculous history of developing young players and making foreign players better. It’s almost a school of football.

6. The players aren’t intelligent enough for him and until he replaces with better models we will look confused, because the players are actually confused. They’re also too comfortable on their wage and achieving nothing every season.

7. There’s an element of him exposing how bad the squad is to say to Mel ‘I need some funds in January’.

8. He’s making us look a bit less glam so we don’t get screwed in the transfer windows. He wants something better than Butterfield for £4m.

9. He plays some players out of position to improve them. Lowe has to use his right foot occasionally. Holmes may now be a little more defensively aware down his right hand side.

[metalsheep02]

Did Bristol City and Everton pay a fee to use Cocu's service to expose how poor Paterson and Dowell are as well?

[BBG83]

You mean Dowell who was very good at Forest and is six games in at a new environment. And Paterson who was exciting at Bristol and has yet to really feature for Derby?

[angieram]

Maybe you are over-thinking this just a little bit, @CocuCrazyCocuMad? 

Although if Cocu is advocating intelligent footballers, I look forward to the return of Chris Martin to the starting line-up imminently! 

[Smyth_18]

3 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

You mean Dowell who was very good at Forest and is six games in at a new environment. And Paterson who was exciting at Bristol and has yet to really feature for Derby?

Think the response so far has been quite unfair on you. Maybe if you had 2000 posts it may be noticed.

I think a few points are very valid. A few conspiracies but other than that, fair post.

[metalsheep02]

11 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

You mean Dowell who was very good at Forest and is six games in at a new environment. And Paterson who was exciting at Bristol and has yet to really feature for Derby?

So Dowell was allegedly good two seasons ago and Paterson is so good that he can't yet get into our team of confused players who are too comfy on their high wages.

With signings like those two I can see any strategy aimed at securing additional funds from Mel in January falling on deaf ears.

[Coneheadjohn]

I don’t know about one step back and two forward,I think that applies to the Football club in its entirety.

On the pitch if I had to set the period since Mac1 to dance it would be something like this.

 

 

[BathRam72]

5 minutes ago, metalsheep02 said:

So Dowell was allegedly good two seasons ago and Paterson is so good that he can't yet get into our team of confused players who are too comfy on their high wages.

With signings like those two I can see any strategy aimed at securing additional funds from Mel in January falling on deaf ears.

Wow @metalsheep02 Do you throw your cars on the scrap heap because your ash tray is full? Or the windshield doesn't defrost?

Give the NEW guys a chance to settle into a NEW team with a NEW manager who is trying to put his NEW philosophy into practice

[Coneheadjohn]

19 minutes ago, metalsheep02 said:

So Dowell was allegedly good two seasons ago

To be fair Dowell looked ok for the Blades.

But that does ask the question of what the hell is going on here,we should be seeing an improvement by now?

I wouldn’t single Dowell out as being any worse than anyone else,he’s just coming under more scrutiny because our midfield is poor and he is perceived to be a Mount/Wilson replacement.

I don’t see the point bringing Paterson in if he’s not going to be involved,hopefully he’ll get his chance.

[BBG83]

12 minutes ago, metalsheep02 said:

So Dowell was allegedly good two seasons ago and Paterson is so good that he can't yet get into our team of confused players who are too comfy on their high wages.

With signings like those two I can see any strategy aimed at securing additional funds from Mel in January falling on deaf ears.

They’re both on loan. They will go back.

Cocu had to sign someone but had next to no time to assess what he needed.

Do you not think players are too comfortable sitting on a good wage?

[metalsheep02]

4 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Wow @metalsheep02 Do you throw your cars on the scrap heap because your ash tray is full? Or the windshield doesn't defrost?

Give the NEW guys a chance to settle into a NEW team with a NEW manager who is trying to put his NEW philosophy into practice

Look fair comment but my response has to be seen in the context of the OP.

Happy to give the new guys a chance but to date Dowell and Paterson have contributed very little -they aren't Mount or Wilson. Fingers crossed they both come good, lets give it a few months and see.

[Mostyn6]

what a bizarre thread. Reads like a group of excuses when the reality should and is an acceptable reason.

The (league) season is 46 games long.

The manager hasn't yet managed to:-

• pick from a fully fit squad; subsequently
• work out his preferred starting XI; subsequently
• embed his style of play into the team
• adjust his mentality to adapt to the style and pace of the Championship
• have a full window in the transfer market to have his own team

Now, there's nothing to suggest that he will or won't ever benefit/achieve any of the above, but no manager with any integrity would try to not win just to prove points against players and owners. It will only end one way, an unemployed manager with a poor reputation.

[metalsheep02]

2 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

They’re both on loan. They will go back.

Cocu had to sign someone but had next to no time to assess what he needed.

Do you not think players are too comfortable sitting on a good wage?

I agree on on limited to assess squad but in 'having to sign someone' it sounds a bit like we are just getting a body in.

I have no idea whether they are too comfortable, they are well paid - what leads you to believe they are too comfy?

At what point did Cocu give up on promotion? 

"We will try to get in the top six in the league but the most important thing is the football we play and the development of individual players."

[RadioactiveWaste]

Some interesting points. I don't agree with all of them, but you may well be right. ?

1 hour ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

My thoughts re. Cocu and how his brain is working right now are;

1. Probably been agreed it's not the expectation this season, I doubt we'd actively be trying not to.

2. He wants the majority of the squad out. Controversial, but probably true over the longer term.

3. He’s using youth for the above but also trying to develop them to either generate money or first team players. Agreed with the second part, that's been Mels thing for years and hopefully starts to bare fruit. Not sure on the first.

4. He’s intentionally playing players out of position to stress them and make them better. I suspect it’s a common tactic at Dutch clubs who have a ridiculous history of developing young players and making foreign players better. It’s almost a school of football. Agreed it may be a factor but I think as much as anything his hand is being forced for a lot of it.

5. He trusts Keogh and Huddlestone because they’re literally the only senior players we have with experience and a will to help others. Regardless of their ability they vocally help and encourage. Best of a bad bunch. Possibly true. Not sure.

6. The players aren’t intelligent enough for him and until he replaces with better models we will look confused, because the players are actually confused. They’re also too comfortable on their wage and achieving nothing every season. Bit of a sweeping statement, probably just going to take most of them a while to understand their new roles.

7. There’s an element of him exposing how bad the squad is to say to Mel ‘I need some funds in January’. I don't think so to be honest. He probably will say I need XYZ in January though.

8. He’s making us look a bit less glam so we don’t get screwed in the transfer windows. He wants something better than Butterfield for £4m. I think that's BS, he's trying to get organised first with the flair and expression added once they've got the system learned.

9. He plays some players out of position to improve them. Lowe has to use his right foot occasionally. Holmes may now be a little more defensively aware down his right hand side. Possibly, but I think injuries /form are pushing this TBH

10. We may flirt with relegation but only till January. Rooney won’t accept a lack of effort. And new signings will arrive. I don't think we will, I think we'll be safely dully midtable by November.

That’s just my take on it. I do believe Cocu is quality and probably more old school than people are now used to or will to be patient with.

Don’t be fooled by the Lampard Season. It wasn’t that great - it just had a twist in Leeds. The bounce papers over the fact that he too, played Bennett up front alone and kept Marriott on the bench at Wembley. And we also relied too heavily on players who were never in a million years going to be a long term addition to Derby County.

 

[BBG83]

9 minutes ago, metalsheep02 said:

I agree on on limited to assess squad but in 'having to sign someone' it sounds a bit like we are just getting a body in.

I have no idea whether they are too comfortable, they are well paid - what leads you to believe they are too comfy?

At what point did Cocu give up on promotion? 

"We will try to get in the top six in the league but the most important thing is the football we play and the development of individual players."

There are players in the squad who are definitely too comfortable. Good wage, good club and probably won’t get better if they left. What I’m getting at is they can easily down tools, help the manager out the door and then carry on with the next manager.

I think he realises that promotion would damage the overall development of the club. To go up we need to invest money (we maybe don’t have). To stay up you need to spend more again and then it’s pot luck if you’re good enough to stay there.

It would be better for the club, and Cocu, to build a real promotion push with an eye of staying in the Prem for years. Not just getting there for a parachute payment.

Im not saying I’m right. Of course I’m not. But I like to think Cocu has more idea of what he’s doing that is perceived by a team sheet or result.

I want to believe that in five years time were in the Prem to stay, with a style and a structure that’s sustainable. Not that we’ve had three managers (who are all bang average and have limited ideas).

[Thierry Ennui]

Yes mate, he's playing Lowe at right back to stress him out and make him better, and not because we have no fit right backs.

[BBG83]

7 minutes ago, Penelope Pendrex said:

Yes mate, he's playing Lowe at right back to stress him out and make him better, and not because we have no fit right backs.

We have Keogh. A former right-back.

[KCG]

Just now, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

We have Keogh. A former right-back.

There are probably a number of players we could use at RB.

[i-Ram]

25 minutes ago, Penelope Pendrex said:

Yes mate, he's playing Lowe at right back to stress him out and make him better, and not because we have no fit right backs.

Perhaps given how his brain might be working right now, Cocu has interpreted the Max Lowe on the back of no. 25 shirt as a message how to treat him rather than it being his name.