ramsbottom Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Watched the game on Saturday, and what I could where Dowell is concerned is a player low on confidence. Seemed to choose the the simple option every time, and even managed to screw a few of those up. It's worth baring in mind that Wilson got quite a lot of flack the first few games of last season, so we should try and be patient. But on the flip side, it's not like Dowell is a novice at this level like he was. Personally, I'd rather see Lawrence down the middle. Even on a bad day he can create one of two moments that can open a defense up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Similar situation to Wilson last season? The lad needs to be dropped but only for coaching purposes. Lampard took Wilson out for a number of games, he came roaring back with a point to prove. I see no reason why Dowell can't follow in the same manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said: Writing off statistics is arrogant. We are emotionally invested in football matches. The stats are not. They’re not the be all and end all and they don’t tell the whole story but they’re never normally far off. I’ve sat as a fan at a Derby match, next to a scout who is objective and discusses performances with him at half time. I am way way more critical than he is and that’s because I’m a fan. Statistics can be skewed to prove a point, and statistics in terms of assessing a creative midfielder don't provide much insight at all apart from assists and goals, becuase what is classed as a chance created is not clearly quantified so he could have 3 chances created but only made 3 simple passes into Lawrence who then went past two defenders and ballooned it over from the edge of the box or 3 perfect 40 yard through balls. On these crappy websites there is also no stats indicating the amount of times he cheaply gave the ball away, and stats don't tell you how many attacks he has slowed down or the % of set pieces that have been woeful or a lack of effort in trying to win the ball back. Stats are only useful for things like tackles per game, interceptions per game, % aerial duels won, and even they can be misleading at times. Any scout watching him so far wouldn't be too impressed, he was ok first game , showed flashes vs Swansea but overall was not great, and other than that he has been very ineffective and only contributed the odd simple pass out to the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo jones Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 3 hours ago, RoyMac5 said: Why is it criticism to say that Bennett (atm) looks better than Dowell. Tell me what Dowell has shown since he's been here? I've not seen him play before so I would like to be told what he's done that is so much better than what we already have. Always shows for the ball and doesn’t shy away. Mason Bennett is not a better centre mid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 23 minutes ago, jimbo jones said: Always shows for the ball and doesn’t shy away. Mason Bennett is not a better centre mid. Didn't say Bennett was a better centre-mid, Lawrence is. As for your first point, okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Marriott Ram99 said: Statistics can be skewed to prove a point, and statistics in terms of assessing a creative midfielder don't provide much insight at all apart from assists and goals, becuase what is classed as a chance created is not clearly quantified so he could have 3 chances created but only made 3 simple passes into Lawrence who then went past two defenders and ballooned it over from the edge of the box or 3 perfect 40 yard through balls. On these crappy websites there is also no stats indicating the amount of times he cheaply gave the ball away, and stats don't tell you how many attacks he has slowed down or the % of set pieces that have been woeful or a lack of effort in trying to win the ball back. Stats are only useful for things like tackles per game, interceptions per game, % aerial duels won, and even they can be misleading at times. Any scout watching him so far wouldn't be too impressed, he was ok first game , showed flashes vs Swansea but overall was not great, and other than that he has been very ineffective and only contributed the odd simple pass out to the wings. Who is trying to skew them? It’s an objective website. How do you know what they do and don’t include? You’re making things up to suit your argument ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 13 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: Who is trying to skew them? It’s an objective website. How do you know what they do and don’t include? You’re making things up to suit your argument ? I seem to remember you showing some of his better stats like chance created per game, wasn't saying the website was skewing them, just saying that there are a lot of things they don't include. Main point was its hard to argue he has been decent based off his stats, when most people can see he hasn't contributed much to the team so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 35 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said: I seem to remember you showing some of his better stats like chance created per game, wasn't saying the website was skewing them, just saying that there are a lot of things they don't include. Main point was its hard to argue he has been decent based off his stats, when most people can see he hasn't contributed much to the team so far. Nope, I only showed their average ratings per game. At least, I don’t remember mentioning specific statistics. The point I'm making is that we are not the best placed to make these judgements because we’re emotionally charged during games and every mistake seems magnified and it becomes harder to see the little things going well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Dowell definitely had his best game last night. Lawrence with his occasionally stunning and often ragged performances looked much more worthy of taking a risk on. Even Flojo seemed to come out with some positives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Chester40 said: Dowell definitely had his best game last night. Lawrence with his occasionally stunning and often ragged performances looked much more worthy of taking a risk on. Even Flojo seemed to come out with some positives.... I suppose they'll all be in the team on Saturday then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 36 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: I suppose they'll all be in the team on Saturday then. I reckon so... nobody staked a claim did they. Think we can now stop saying 'use the youth/squad', 'why no Paterson', 'Huddlestone is past it'. Suppose Cocu has bought himself the opportunity to work with what he has been so far and get the players to work in a system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Chester40 said: I reckon so... nobody staked a claim did they. Think we can now stop saying 'use the youth/squad', 'why no Paterson', 'Huddlestone is past it'. Suppose Cocu has bought himself the opportunity to work with what he has been so far and get the players to work in a system. Not sure that's what you get from that. Football players don't perform by themselves. It's all about partnerships, pattern of play and things like that. There's no saying what Paterson would do if in a team with Waghorn and Huddlestone, and there's no saying what Evans would do if he was in the first team instead of Huddlestone - for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Srg said: Not sure that's what you get from that. Football players don't perform by themselves. It's all about partnerships, pattern of play and things like that. There's no saying what Paterson would do if in a team with Waghorn and Huddlestone, and there's no saying what Evans would do if he was in the first team instead of Huddlestone - for example. Fair points, agreed. My point is nobody seems head and shoulders above what we have. Evans for Huddlestone, Paterson for Jozefzoon, Shinnie for Dowell...ain't gonna make a massive difference. Suggesrs there are no easy answers like some would have you believe. Get a solid foundation/formation and stick to it...then we tinker with the individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chester40 said: Fair points, agreed. My point is nobody seems head and shoulders above what we have. Evans for Huddlestone, Paterson for Jozefzoon, Shinnie for Dowell...ain't gonna make a massive difference. Suggesrs there are no easy answers like some would have you believe. Get a solid foundation/formation and stick to it...then we tinker with the individuals. That's true, no one took it with both hands but it was a pretty impossible situation given the surrounding team and unfamiliarity. There is no easy fix, that is for certain. I suggest the answer maybe in finding the right balance and combination which may not necessarily be the best players, but the ones which work together for the benefit of the whole team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Srg said: That's true, no one took it with both hands but it was a pretty impossible situation given the surrounding team and unfamiliarity. There is no easy fix, that is for certain. I suggest the answer maybe in finding the right balance and combination which may not necessarily be the best players, but the ones which work together for the benefit of the whole team.i Too many questions and not enough answers yet for me... especially as I have believed since the season started that Waghorn on his own up front isn't going to be the answer. Hard working, willing, powerful yes...but his first touch and finishing aren''t up to being that focal point in the system we seem to favour. Cocu needs to decide whether to move him to the wing, or fit him and Marriott in a two. At worst, get a genuine goalscorer as a number 10, Lawrence on his (all too infrequent) day...maybe Rooney is the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chester40 said: Too many questions and not enough answers yet for me... especially as I have believed since the season started that Waghorn on his own up front isn't going to be the answer. Hard working, willing, powerful yes...but his first touch and finishing aren''t up to being that focal point in the system we seem to favour. Cocu needs to decide whether to move him to the wing, or fit him and Marriott in a two. At worst, get a genuine goalscorer as a number 10, Lawrence on his (all too infrequent) day...maybe Rooney is the man. I think we saw some shoots on Saturday in parts. Waghorn wide with Marriott through the middle and Lawrence on the other side. Both of them coming narrow to help Marriott being on his own, leaving the space for the full backs - which is where we need Bogle back. I'd keep Lowe in the team on the left. I want to see us without Huddlestone, think he's holding the midfield back by having to do his running and he hinders us in our pressing game - looks sublime when he has the ball at his feet and is given 20 seconds to slow it all down and play a nice pass though, but not sure that's enough for the negatives it's causing as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS1992 Posted August 31, 2019 Author Share Posted August 31, 2019 Surely people can't defend Dowell this time (somehow I think people will). He wasn't the only shiite one today by any means, however he has been consistently shiiiite. At least he is good at something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 I would be happy to build a new stadium, rename the club, move it a few miles, tell all the players and forget to tell Dowell he is that bad. In fact I'd probably leave Huddlestone off the email too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derbydaz22 Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 The worrying thing is after speaking to a Forest fan he said Dowell started really well with them and then faded badly,if he fades with us how bad will he get? ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted August 31, 2019 Share Posted August 31, 2019 1 hour ago, derbydaz22 said: The worrying thing is after speaking to a Forest fan he said Dowell started really well with them and then faded badly,if he fades with us how bad will he get? ?? Sorry to say after seeing him today he is a lost cause. We are not the club for him and not where we are currently. He needs to go as this is not going to end well. Good luck to him wherever he goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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