Winging it

[sage]

37 minutes ago, Brummie Steve said:

How about Wayne Rooney eh? eh!

He will help overall but not a winger.

 

[sage]

42 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

We're 3 games in - We've played one of the relegated sides and two sides still on parachute payments from relegation the season before - Plus Swansea look like they might be stringing it together properly this year and we edged that game and should have won

By Christmas we can start judging whether or not we have a proper attacking threat - At the moment we're still a brand spanking new side under a new manager

Are you happy with Lawrence, Josefzoon and Paterson as our 3 wingers?

[cheron85]

14 minutes ago, sage said:

Are you happy with Lawrence, Josefzoon and Paterson as our 3 wingers?

?‍♂️

I'd rather have Bale in the mix too - But that seems unlikely

Lawrence has that little bit of magic - Josefzoon can provide energy, some nice footwork and a decent cross, Paterson reminds me a little of Ward in his tenaciousness and ability to wriggle through small spaces - Add in Bennett's energy, enthusiasm, passion and directness - Plus the fact that already Cocu shows willingness to change around his formation halfway through a game / to suit whatever he sees happening - And they each provide a different element/challenge for a defender to deal with

Lawrence lives with 2 players on him all game every game - If the others (plus Dowell, Evans and Holmes when back) can take advantage of that then there's no reason this can't be a potent attack - There have been glimpses of it so far and I think they just need more time to get used to Cocu-ball - Which seems to be less reliant on wingers and encourages playing through the middle

I think the squad already look capable of challenging for a top 6 place - I think once they get used to this style of play and Cocu gets a better eye in on the division we'll be solid top 6 candidate and once we add Rooney and (maybe) drop some 'kick on' money in January we could trouble the top 2

I feel like a broken record but we're 3 games into the season under a manager who is new to us, the league and the country - And we already look good - I may be overly naive in this - But just imagine what they'll be capable of when we get up to full speed? 

[brady1993]

48 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I don’t understand this obsession with ditching the wingers and trying a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond after just 4 games.

Cocu likes his system and it could be 10-15 games before it clicks and we get to see the best version of it. Why would he give up on it after 4 games?

I mean you add a fully fit Bielik, Bogle and Holmes to this side and the team looks much more promising.

We know Lawrence and Jozefzoon are inconsistent and frustrating. But at the same time, Cocu obviously sees something they can add to the team, so let’s see if he can coax more out of them.

In the same way people are saying in the other thread that Dowell needs 15 games before we can judge him, surely Lawrence and Jozefzoon deserve the same time playing under a new manager with new ideas?

I'm partially with you, partially with those calling for a switch to a diamond/352.

I think if you list the best 10 outfield players (with a little leeway) it does end up looking a lot like a diamond. But it's not always the best players make the best team and I do think a diamond is difficult to get working. 

Plus your right that Cocu might see something in some of the unfavoured players and he might think given time he can get more out of them.

[Marriot Ram99]

6 hours ago, Ambitious said:

I've said a few times that we need to find a way to scrap the wingers, Lawrence is the only one with the ability to hurt teams and he's better cutting in. We don't even have much to go at in the free agency. Markel Susaeta is a name, proven performer in La Liga, currently out of contract but can only assume that he's waiting for a big money move somewhere for his retirement fund. I'd personally look to see what he wants because he could make a huge difference to this team, as would any quality winger. 

If we don't bring anyone in, we need to get Waghorn and Marriott on the pitch at the same time.

Probably abit too good for us TBH, and would want probably atleast 40k+ a week.

[Jourdan]

39 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I'm partially with you, partially with those calling for a switch to a diamond/352.

I think if you list the best 10 outfield players (with a little leeway) it does end up looking a lot like a diamond. But it's not always the best players make the best team and I do think a diamond is difficult to get working. 

Plus your right that Cocu might see something in some of the unfavoured players and he might think given time he can get more out of them.

I think that’s it - we need the fullness of time before we can judge this team and the direction that Cocu is going in, because so much can change when he has a fully fit squad to choose from.

I am not saying 4-3-3 is the answer. A 3-5-2 or a diamond could work better. But Cocu strikes me as calm, patient and measured and not the type of manager to give up on players or abandon a system after three league games when we still have many players missing or getting up to speed.

Many posts are saying that our midfield is unbalanced, our wide players are an issue and that goals and chances look hard to come by.

But it’s only August, not November. Nothing’s going to be polished and perfect at this stage. It’s all coming together. We need to be patient.

Despite all of our glaring issues, we are 8th and only 1 point behind Fulham (who have scored the exact same number of goals as us) and two points behind Leeds and West Brom (who have scored 6 and 5 goals respectively).

Newly promoted Charlton are unbeaten, have 7 points from 9, and have scored the most goals in the division. Should we be asking: What is Lee Bowyer’s secret?

 

[dabber]

48 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I think that’s it - we need the fullness of time before we can judge this team and the direction that Cocu is going in, because so much can change when he has a fully fit squad to choose from.

I am not saying 4-3-3 is the answer. A 3-5-2 or a diamond could work better. But Cocu strikes me as calm, patient and measured and not the type of manager to give up on players or abandon a system after three league games when we still have many players missing or getting up to speed.

Many posts are saying that our midfield is unbalanced, our wide players are an issue and that goals and chances look hard to come by.

But it’s only August, not November. Nothing’s going to be polished and perfect at this stage. It’s all coming together. We need to be patient.

Despite all of our glaring issues, we are 8th and only 1 point behind Fulham (who have scored the exact same number of goals as us) and two points behind Leeds and West Brom (who have scored 6 and 5 goals respectively).

Newly promoted Charlton are unbeaten, have 7 points from 9, and have scored the most goals in the division. Should we be asking: What is Lee Bowyer’s secret?

 

Aye he is that "calm, patient and measured" that he gave up on a system half way through one game!

[Jourdan]

1 minute ago, dabber said:

Aye he is that "calm, patient and measured" that he gave up on a system half way through one game!

Managers change systems frequently in the flow of a game, especially if it helps the team to be more effective in that particular game. Usually it’s a temporary change. Just because the initial set up didn’t work against Stoke doesn’t mean it won’t work against other teams.

The point wasn’t that he wasn’t going to change anything, but more that he will stick with his preferred system and won’t change systems permanently after such a small number of games and when he still has players to come into the side and potentially make his preferred system more effective.

[RamNut]

9 hours ago, Jourdan said:

he still has players to come into the side and potentially make his preferred system more effective.

What is his preferred system?

Its starting to look like two holding midfielders and 4231. Thereafter i'm not entirely sure what we are trying to achieve. we talk about possession based attacking football, but the result looks more like a Rowett-style defensive unit sitting deep?

roos for carson

lowe for wisdom

malone for forsyth

keogh

clarke for davies

huddz

evans for ledley

jozefzoon for weimann

dowell for vydra ?

Lawrence

waggy for nugent / jerome

[Shaftesbury Street]

16 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Yes, we have all seen those players for more than 4 games. So too has Cocu. He has spent the last 6 weeks with them every day in training and he will have watched hours of footage before that. And still he picks them - so maybe we trust the manager for now?

I could understand the clamour for 3-5-2 or a diamond if we had gone 6 games without a goal. I could understand the clamour for two up top if we were losing games and barely laying a glove on opposition defences. I could understand the clamour if Marriott looked razor sharp and had taken his chances in his limited game time.

Right now, we are trying to solve a problem that hasn’t even arisen, rather than giving the manager time to figure out his best XI and to perfect his desired system.

And as you have seen so far Cocu is a reactive manager. Performances are not bad, but it's not great either atm. I believe players need time to show what they can do, but 15 games? That's a third of the season gone hoping flojo will become a world beater.

I guarantee tonight he'll make significant changes to the formation and starting eleven.

[Raich Carter]

16 hours ago, cheron85 said:

 

Lawrence has that little bit of magic - Josefzoon can provide energy, some nice footwork and a decent cross, 

I agree on Lawrence but how often does Joflo put in a decent cross? I’m not a moaning nelly but Joflo brings nothing for me. 

He’s not as quick as we thought, doesn’t close down properly, doesn’t take players on when he should, poor decision making and generally doesn’t bring much at all. 

I am not a fan. 

Lawrence is class. Just doesn’t seem to be able to turn it on enough but at least he has some flair and can turn it on.

[Jourdan]

6 hours ago, RamNut said:

What is his preferred system?

Its starting to look like two holding midfielders and 4231. Thereafter i'm not entirely sure what we are trying to achieve. we talk about possession based attacking football, but the result looks more like a Rowett-style defensive unit sitting deep?

roos for carson

lowe for wisdom

malone for forsyth

keogh

clarke for davies

huddz

evans for ledley

jozefzoon for weimann

dowell for vydra ?

Lawrence

waggy for nugent / jerome

I agree that we haven’t looked convincing, but we are 3 games in and 6 weeks into Cocu’s tenure, is it reasonable to expect us to be performing well and looking good?

Can you remember the last time we looked good under any manager in August? Usually we catch fire in October or November.

You’re right that it looks like a 4-2-3-1, but we are not at full strength, so who knows how it will look when everyone is fit? Stick Bogle, Bielik and Holmes into the current XI and already it’s more positive and attack minded.

Let’s see how the team evolves in the coming weeks.

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, Shaftesbury Street said:

And as you have seen so far Cocu is a reactive manager. Performances are not bad, but it's not great either atm. I believe players need time to show what they can do, but 15 games? That's a third of the season gone hoping flojo will become a world beater.

I guarantee tonight he'll make significant changes to the formation and starting eleven.

Significant changes to the formation and the starting XI, you say? Let’s see. If you are right, then fair play to you.

Everyone wants the team at its best and playing to its potential and if we have to change something to make that happen, so be it.

But it’s only August - how often do we hit the ground running and play well at this time of year?

For me, if in October or November the same issues are apparent, then I’d be worried and looking to change things up with the system and the personnel.

But until then, I think we have to see how things develop. 4-2-3-1 with Huddlestone and Evans is the starting point, but it’s not the finished product.

[TibshelfRam]

22 hours ago, sage said:

Are you happy with Lawrence, Josefzoon and Paterson as our 3 wingers?

I know that this is perhaps controversial, but I actually am. And I'll remain so for a while yet until they convince me otherwise.

Lawrence has always had it in him to be a quality player. I always felt that Rowett-ball never suited him and that he was a bit in out out of the side due to injuries last season. I really feel that Cocu's system suits him and allows him to play his natural game. Once we click going forward with a little more creativity to supply the wingers he'll start firing. Look at every side Cocu has managed, from Depay to Lozano - he's had an inconsistent inside forward who has thrived in his system and under his management.

Jozefzoon is a decent opposite number to Lawrence - as Lawrence wants to come inside, Jozefzoon can stay wide and pin the touchline. I personally think that he's trying to hard at the moment due to criticism - he needs to just play his game. He's at his best when he's asked to just run at players and stretch teams with his pace. There's a player in there and in the system we are going with, he could be effective.

Paterson could be a mixture of the two but, whilst some people will say he's never pulled up any trees, I'd say that he's been a first team regular at championship sides for a while and has been a solid performer. He wouldn't be my first choice, but he's a decent back up who can play anywhere across the front 3.

What I'm saying is this: would I have complained if we'd have brought in top draw wingers from elsewhere? Of course not. But I actually think that we have wingers who, in the right system and given the right service (which thus far they haven't been) are more than able to do well. I think that that will come and things will click into place going forward. And I believe that we have a system that will get the best out of them.

[sage]

22 minutes ago, TibshelfRam said:

I know that this is perhaps controversial, but I actually am. And I'll remain so for a while yet until they convince me otherwise.

Lawrence has always had it in him to be a quality player. I always felt that Rowett-ball never suited him and that he was a bit in out out of the side due to injuries last season. I really feel that Cocu's system suits him and allows him to play his natural game. Once we click going forward with a little more creativity to supply the wingers he'll start firing. Look at every side Cocu has managed, from Depay to Lozano - he's had an inconsistent inside forward who has thrived in his system and under his management.

Jozefzoon is a decent opposite number to Lawrence - as Lawrence wants to come inside, Jozefzoon can stay wide and pin the touchline. I personally think that he's trying to hard at the moment due to criticism - he needs to just play his game. He's at his best when he's asked to just run at players and stretch teams with his pace. There's a player in there and in the system we are going with, he could be effective.

Paterson could be a mixture of the two but, whilst some people will say he's never pulled up any trees, I'd say that he's been a first team regular at championship sides for a while and has been a solid performer. He wouldn't be my first choice, but he's a decent back up who can play anywhere across the front 3.

What I'm saying is this: would I have complained if we'd have brought in top draw wingers from elsewhere? Of course not. But I actually think that we have wingers who, in the right system and given the right service (which thus far they haven't been) are more than able to do well. I think that that will come and things will click into place going forward. And I believe that we have a system that will get the best out of them.

I have never seen Josefzoon have a good game for us.

Not one.

Lawrence has 1 good game in 4.

It was the weakest part of our squad before the window and remains so.

 

[TibshelfRam]

37 minutes ago, sage said:

I have never seen Josefzoon have a good game for us.

Not one.

Lawrence has 1 good game in 4.

It was the weakest part of our squad before the window and remains so.

 

Hull away. He looked good.

Plus, I actually felt that when he came on in the play off final, we looked better - direct running and stayed wide causing them problems. Football is a game of opinions, mind.

Take your point about Lawrence. Which is why I said about the other wingers Cocu has worked with. Plenty would say that Depay and Lozano have been 1 in 4 wingers at other clubs. But Cocu got the best out of the them in a system that suited them. I say, lets give him the chance to do it again. Because if he can, Lawrence could be one hell of a player.

[Jourdan]

I think Jozefzoon gets too much of a hard time.

He didn’t do very well last season, but did he get genuine backing from the manager?

We know how much a manager’s backing can make a difference. See Vydra in 16-17 v Vydra in 17-18.

How is a player supposed to build confidence, consistency and understanding with his teammates if he starts 13 games in an entire league campaign?

For 12 games he wasn’t even in the squad and for 7 games he was an unused substitute. So for over 40% of our league games, he didn’t get a kick.

So maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to write Jozefzoon off? Maybe if Cocu sticks with him, he’ll be rewarded.

[Srg]

1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

I think Jozefzoon gets too much of a hard time.

He didn’t do very well last season, but did he get genuine backing from the manager?

We know how much a manager’s backing can make a difference. See Vydra in 16-17 v Vydra in 17-18.

How is a player supposed to build confidence, consistency and understanding with his teammates if he starts 13 games in an entire league campaign?

For 12 games he wasn’t even in the squad and for 7 games he was an unused substitute. So for over 40% of our league games, he didn’t get a kick.

So maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to write Jozefzoon off? Maybe if Cocu sticks with him, he’ll be rewarded.

I too am a Zoon defender. Think he's been judged too harshly and tarred with a stick he doesn't deserve. With that said, he really was poor on Saturday.

[Jourdan]

If you compare it to the previous season with Brentford, he made 31 starts and 8 substitute appearances. He scored 7 and assisted 7.

Maybe he is terrible, or maybe he is one of those players who just needs a manager who believes in him, considers him a key player and sticks with him for better or worse?

It’ll be interesting to see if he improves under Cocu.

[brady1993]

7 minutes ago, Srg said:

I too am a Zoon defender. Think he's been judged too harshly and tarred with a stick he doesn't deserve. With that said, he really was poor on Saturday.

I'm with you and @Jourdan in defending him. And also thought he was ok in the first half on Saturday (only watched the first half so far). 

He's not be outstanding but to my view he's put in 3 ok performances and I'm ok if he gets more of a chance.