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sage

Winging it

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1 hour ago, Millenniumram said:

Couldn’t agree more with that second paragraph, I made similar arguements all last season- I actually think scraping into the playoffs the way we did was the minimum that could be expected from that team. It was so full of quality players, with certain players like mount clearly way above this level, arguably one of the best teams we’ve had at this level. The way the media made Lampard out to be a genius was a massive exaggeration, he did no more than a decent job- in fact anything less would have been a poor job imo with the quality at his disposal. I think you’re right in the fact we over relied on individuals, I think that was actually a deliberate tactic- it works to an extent when you have someone like Wilson, but long term you need to have the ability to create chances consistently. That’s one of the reasons I think the Chelsea job has come way too early and as of yet, Lampard is out of his depth. Not to say he’ll never be a good manager, but I wouldn’t say he’s top class yet.

This is exactly my point though, I actually think cocu has shown he has the right sort of tactical foundations, focusing more on building play through the team, rather than individuals. I just think he’s been left short by the recruitment team. He was promised a squad capable of challenging and I don’t think that’s been delivered to him if I’m honest. Not cocus fault, but I’m not entirely sure what happened with the recruitment team in that window. Like I say, cocus potential increased managerial ability may counter the poorer squad and lead us to a better position. I hope that’s the case and I don’t believe it’s impossible based on what I’ve seen so far in the slightest, I’m definately not writing the season off. I just feel our squad, in an attacking sense specifically, is probably the poorest we’ve had since the Clough days, so to get the goals we need is a big task on the manager. But a good manager can make average players look good where a poorer manager may not, so let’s hope cocu being here instead of Lampard holds the key.

On the recruiting side of things I get where you are coming from but I think it's hard to judge the recruitment team because we aren't privy to the ins and outs of it. Personally I think we fell a little short at the final hurdle and were missing a good cm and rw coming in. But there was a good indication of that's what we were looking at and it's hard to say how far away we were from getting over the line. For example how much better do things look if we'd have brought in Hendrick and Ibe as we were rumoured we were close too? 

It was always going to be a tricky window recruitment wise because of us starting late preseason and Cocu coming in later. I think in the circumstances we didn't do badly without have a great window.

I think an interesting point though is was Cocu promised a squad capable of challenging ? Now I think that's the easiest interpretation of why he decided to join after having reservations over the loan players returning. However it doesn't add up to me because if that was the problem he could have easily gone elsewhere or even higher up. Now this a bit of a tin foil theory but I think he's joined primarily because of the academy and because he's been given enough room to shape what we do as a club from top to bottom. I think he's not in this for a 1 season promotion but to build something substantial over multiple seasons. He's already handed out more first caps to academy players than any manager since Clough. And how many managers would have stuck Knight and Buchanan on the bench over Shinnie and Davies ? 

In terms of attacking talent, I think it's a strange one as its more talent in advanced midfield roles (wingers included) that we lack. Maybe we can cover that with careful personal selection ? Maybe the answer lies with the likes of Knight ? Hard to say but I think if we stay in touching distance of top 6 till January I think we have a good chance of finishing in the promotion hunt.

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9 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Am sure we brought a winger in called Paterson from Brizzle or isn't he a winger?

He's not a winger, he's a very naughty boy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And he's crap

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5 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

don’t think what we’ve brought in has gone close to replacing their quality.

We're not going to replace their quality. No team in the championship has their quality. There's a reason why they are both at prem teams now and scoring goals for them

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5 hours ago, Sparkle said:

We are being sensible - settling the defence as best as possible ( currently missing bogle) placing 2 defensive midfielders in front and expecting the forwards to score when they have chances and looking to spring on the opposition - so far we are unbeaten having been to two difficult away looking fixtures bringing 4 points and our one home game we missed a penalty all 3 games against teams receiving parachute payments - all in a very decent point return and we don’t look as poor as we did last season after 3 league games

Don’t talk sense..... 

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4 hours ago, CHCDerby said:

A fit Bogle, Bieliek and Marriott is the answer. They all add high and quick press which is what we have been missing. We can quite easily be top 6 by January if this happens. 

Yes I think so. The manager needs to find a place for Marriott, a natural finisher. The chance that Waghorn missed would most likely have been netted if it had fallen to Jack Marriott. Bogle makes great runs in to the opponents half. Bielik will be solid in front of the defence as well as driving forward. Also Holmes to return and add energy. We have a top 6 squad, no question at all. 

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6 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

One of the 4 was a penalty so not from open play and it's disingenuous to mention another penalty which we missed again not from open play.

The 0-0 against Swansea was by any stretch of the imagination turgid and we created again very little from open play when the onus was on us being at home.

Turgid imagination is a good description of you thought processes. You make no allowances from the stage of the season we are at with a new manager. Do you expect instant improvement?

Guess you have forgotten the Leeds home match early on last seasons or some of the other early performances. Patience is required.

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16 minutes ago, DRBee said:

Turgid imagination is a good description of you thought processes. You make no allowances from the stage of the season we are at with a new manager. Do you expect instant improvement?

Guess you have forgotten the Leeds home match early on last seasons or some of the other early performances. Patience is required.

If you wouldn't describe the Swansea performance as turgid how would you then describe it - honest question.

Then obviously I can come back with a retort just like you have to my description.

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9 hours ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

The last couple of days in the transfer window would define our season, 2 loans from rivals, a 3rd choice keeper and a fairly decent (but no more) attacking player from Bristol City, both straight out of the Nigel Clough handbook.

2 players were needed, i guess Rooney would have been 1, but he decided to stay at DC until Jan and it really is worth the wait and a quality winger to replace Wilson (perhaps we were waiting on Wilson and were hopeful).

We just need to Jan and I would imagine Rooney and 1 other will be the difference.

As long as we are still competing come January. So far, it’s ok lol.

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4 hours ago, B4ev6is said:

Stop being so nagtive of cause we are going to be around top 2 and with roony coming in can only help.

I’ll be astounded if we’re top two with this squad come January, I reckon 8th at best. With Rooney we’ll finish higher than where we are when he joins mind, provided he stays fit.

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No. The original post is correct. Our wingers aren’t quite good enough. Paterson will prove to be a poor loan signing and has 5th choice written all over him. Sadly Lawrence isn’t quite consistent enough, despite having ability, and FloJo plays like the kid from Argentina, in that we bought the wrong Brentford winger.

Mervyn Wallace and Paco Diaz would have been a couple of great additions. Super players. Couldn’t afford their wages. 

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I've said a few times that we need to find a way to scrap the wingers, Lawrence is the only one with the ability to hurt teams and he's better cutting in. We don't even have much to go at in the free agency. Markel Susaeta is a name, proven performer in La Liga, currently out of contract but can only assume that he's waiting for a big money move somewhere for his retirement fund. I'd personally look to see what he wants because he could make a huge difference to this team, as would any quality winger. 

If we don't bring anyone in, we need to get Waghorn and Marriott on the pitch at the same time.

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22 hours ago, bucktwo said:

It's the team selection that needs addressing.  Hudds and zoon out , beilck and Marriott in 

Shinnie Beilick Dowell 

Lawrence

Waghorn   Marriott 

.........

Holmes Bennett Paterson all pacey impact subs  ..

Yup I'd like to see Knight over Shinnie as a more attacking option though, either a 4312 (Waghorn and Marriott up top) 433 (Waghorn on the right) or a 4231, Lawrence in the number 10 (his best position) but with mediocre wingers in Bennett and Paterson.

 

Knight Bielik Dowell 

Lawrence

Waghorn   Marriott 

 

or 

 

Knight Bielik Dowell 

Waghorn Marriott Lawrence  

 

or this

Bielik Dowell 

Bennett Lawrence Paterson

Waghorn

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Simples. Said it before on a few threads.

Diamond with Lawrence as No.10 behind a front two of Waggy and Marriott.

Width from fullbacks and the above three drifting wide.

Works in either 4-1-2-1-2 or 3-5-2

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Posted (edited)

I don’t understand this obsession with ditching the wingers and trying a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond after just 4 games.

Cocu likes his system and it could be 10-15 games before it clicks and we get to see the best version of it. Why would he give up on it after 4 games?

I mean you add a fully fit Bielik, Bogle and Holmes to this side and the team looks much more promising.

We know Lawrence and Jozefzoon are inconsistent and frustrating. But at the same time, Cocu obviously sees something they can add to the team, so let’s see if he can coax more out of them.

In the same way people are saying in the other thread that Dowell needs 15 games before we can judge him, surely Lawrence and Jozefzoon deserve the same time playing under a new manager with new ideas?

Edited by Jourdan

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I don’t understand this obsession with ditching the wingers and trying a 3-5-2 or a 4-4-2 diamond after just 4 games.

Agreed 4 games is too few to judge. However, we have all seen Lawrence, Jo-Flo and Bennett for more than 4 games. I think, by general consensus, Lawrence is better in the middle - as a No.10 (as demonstrated against Huddersfield when Cocu played him in that role). The jury is still out on whether Jo-Flo can contribute long term and on what Bennett's best position is. Most important of all, we all want to see Marriott and Waghorn in the team together - without forcing Waggy to play out wide.

352 or a diamond facilitate that.

Edited by IslandExile
Huddersfield

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2 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Agreed 4 games is too few to judge. However, we have all seen Lawrence, Jo-Flo and Bennett for more than 4 games. I think, by general consensus, Lawrence is better in the middle - as a No.10 (as demonstrated against Huddersfield when Cocu played him in that role). The jury is still out on whether Jo-Flo can contribute long term and on what Bennett's best position is. Most important of all, we all want to see Marriott and Waghorn in the team together - without forcing Waggy to play out wide.

352 or a diamond facilitate that.

Yes, we have all seen those players for more than 4 games. So too has Cocu. He has spent the last 6 weeks with them every day in training and he will have watched hours of footage before that. And still he picks them - so maybe we trust the manager for now?

I could understand the clamour for 3-5-2 or a diamond if we had gone 6 games without a goal. I could understand the clamour for two up top if we were losing games and barely laying a glove on opposition defences. I could understand the clamour if Marriott looked razor sharp and had taken his chances in his limited game time.

Right now, we are trying to solve a problem that hasn’t even arisen, rather than giving the manager time to figure out his best XI and to perfect his desired system.

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On 18/08/2019 at 03:19, sage said:

I can see us lurking around the fringes of the play off places until January.

Anything better will be stymied by our inability to bring a winger or two in in the window.

Hopefully if we can stay in touch, 1 quality addition may just give us that extra impetus.

We're 3 games in - We've played one of the relegated sides and two sides still on parachute payments from relegation the season before - Plus Swansea look like they might be stringing it together properly this year and we edged that game and should have won

By Christmas we can start judging whether or not we have a proper attacking threat - At the moment we're still a brand spanking new side under a new manager

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On 18/08/2019 at 03:19, sage said:

I can see us lurking around the fringes of the play off places until January.

Anything better will be stymied by our inability to bring a winger or two in in the window.

Hopefully if we can stay in touch, 1 quality addition may just give us that extra impetus.

 

How about Wayne Rooney eh? eh!

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