Lawrence up to 30 minutes in a game

[Derbyram1]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

He was one of the few constantly trying last night. Went on two great mazy runs only to be fouled... but not rewarded with freekicks. Then as he's catching his breath back people lambaste him for not sprinting back to offer support.

Exactly this!!

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

27 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

Didn't say that though did he.

Err yes. That's why I put it on here. I would try listening back to Radio Derby, he said it yesterday .  Thanks for the incisive response .  Seems to be the norm on here over the last 24 hour's.

[Derbyram1]

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Err yes. That's why I put it on here. I would try listening back to Radio Derby, he said it yesterday .  Thanks for the incisive response .  Seems to be the norm on here over the last 24 hour's.

Was at the game, wasn't listening to radio Derby.

[Wolfie20]

9 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Eric Steeles point was probably about right .  Said he asked Ryan Giggs about Lawrence and his showing for Wales.  Giggs gave him the toss of a coin sign .

Think that says more about Giggs than it does about Lawrence.

[Derbyram1]

7 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Err yes. That's why I put it on here. I would try listening back to Radio Derby, he said it yesterday .  Thanks for the incisive response .  Seems to be the norm on here over the last 24 hour's.

Giggs can't think he is that bad considering he has jut picked him for the current Welsh squad.

[SaintRam]

6 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

Giggs can't think he is that bad considering he has jut picked him for the current Welsh squad.

He clearly doesn't think he's bad; otherwise he'd have just done a thumbs down or something. 

He is inconsistent, and in the past he has often bounced between extremes - seems like a "coin toss" is a fairly accurate analogy to me.
(Although in fairness, this season, while he was excellent against Huddersfield he hasn't been particularly poor in the games since, just not as good. Which is an absolute improvement on past seasons when he's been a little off his game.)

Lawrence's good days make him one of Wales' best players (outside the obvious outlier that is Bale); so of course he regularly gets picked for the squad.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

Was at the game, wasn't listening to radio Derby.

That's fine .  Not sure if your making a point there, but we'll let that one go.  But you accused me straight out of talking ******** without even checking the source . 

 

3 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

Giggs can't think he is that bad considering he has jut picked him for the current Welsh squad.

I didn't say he thought he was bad . Toss of the coin indicates inconsistent .  

[Shang]

I think the issue is that Cocu has given Tom too much freedom. The consistent problem last night was Malone wasn't given a forward pass option as Lawrence drifted central and the pass was blocked by the opposition midfield. Lawrence clearly prefers to be in the centre of the pitch but he should be told that he can drift in once he has the ball at feet with Lowe or Malone on the overlap.

Malone was visibly frustrated as he kept having to pass the ball back to Clarke and fans got on his back because of it. We're already way too narrow on the right, Tom needs to do his part for the team and keep wide on the sidelines until we're attacking the final third.

[Derbyram1]

16 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

That's fine .  Not sure if your making a point there, but we'll let that one go.  But you accused me straight out of talking ******** without even checking the source . 

 

I didn't say he thought he was bad . Toss of the coin indicates inconsistent .  

Gee Screamer i am going to apologise now...i miss read and thought you said Gigs gave him the 'Toss' sign....didn't see the coin bit ?

Oh and no, wasn't making a point about Radio Derby, just didn't hear any of it as got to the ground early.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

Gee Screamer i am going to apologise now...i miss read and thought you said Gigs gave him the 'Toss' sign....didn't see the coin bit ?

Oh and no, wasn't making a point about Radio Derby, just didn't hear any of it as got to the ground early.

Appreciate it .  Suppose it's easily misread .  Think someone had a bit of fun earlier and changed it for a pun, so you may have read that . Wish I could go to more midweek games, atmosphere always seems to be better .  Weekend's only now I'm afraid for the next year or so.

[Derbyram1]

58 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Appreciate it .  Suppose it's easily misread .  Think someone had a bit of fun earlier and changed it for a pun, so you may have read that . Wish I could go to more midweek games, atmosphere always seems to be better .  Weekend's only now I'm afraid for the next year or so.

TBH the midweek atmosphere was pretty poor last night, seems like the Lampard 'BUZZ' has gone....hopefully Cocu can bring it back.

 

[Mick Brolly]

13 minutes ago, Derbyram1 said:

 

Appreciate it .  Suppose it's easily misread .  Think someone had a bit of fun earlier and changed it for a pun,

Well they need to bloody well grow up.

[cannable]

14 hours ago, DCFC Ram said:

Stats don't lie.

But these stats don't show the number of times that JR and Ince failed to track back, 'hid' when we had the ball, covered for their fullback etc. They also don't show the number of games where either got ratings of 5 or less. My guess (and it is just that) is that Ince had a fair few whereas JR didn't over the 3 seasons.

 

Ince slogged his baalocks off but was consistently called out because of his body language etcetera 

[May Contain Nuts]

21 hours ago, BrizzleRam said:

Stats for the seasons JR and Ince played in the same team...

2014-15: 

JR 39 apps,  6 goals, 8 assists. 2 MoM awards. 

Ince 18 apps, 11 goals, 1 assist, 7 MoM awards. 

2015-16:

JR 47 apps,  10 goals, 8 assists, 1 MoM award. 

Ince 44 apps, 12 goals, 8 assists, 5 MoM awards. 

2016-17:

JR 36 apps, 2 goals, 4 assists, 1 MoM award.  

Ince 45 apps, 14 goals, 6 assists, 6 MoM awards.
Over 3 seasons, Ince contributed to 14 more goals than Russell, and received 14 more MoM awards, despite making 15 less appearances.

One thing's for sure, Lawrence is a bit crap and a huge disappointment, but...

...oh, joy of joys another Tom Ince love-in!  Nice stats but they fail to factor in so many things.

Ince made fewer appearances but he had more minutes on the pitch. Ince was almost always played in his best position, but to facilitate that Russell would be shoved to the left when he's more productive from the right. Play Ince in the middle or on the left and his goal stats would be considerably worse too.

When you play Tom Ince you accept that he's going to, more often than not, have one thing on his mind - cut inside, have a shot, and the rest of his general play is all about getting himself in a position to do that, and he is very good at doing so, but he's not really interested in what he can do for other players unless the shot, any shot, isn't on. How many times did you ever see him go on the outside of his man in order to get to the byline to put a cross in? Almost never. He was no winger, he was an inside forward, pretty much a second striker at times.

When Tom Ince is played to his strengths the opposite winger (along with most other players on the pitch) sees very little of the ball, so of course the stats are going to be heavily skewed in his direction, it's a no brainer. Put Ince in the 2017/18 team with Vydra and you'd be wiping about half of Vydra's goals out, not adding his own to the total.

Russell was a far less selfish player, albeit far less technically capable, so naturally he's not going to have shot as much or scored as many as Ince did, but any technically decent player who gets quite as much shooting practice as Ince should find their confidence, consistency and rhythm improves with repetition, something you don't get from having the odd snap-shot here and there unless you're an elite finisher, something Ince definitely isn't.

When you're taking about Ince's technical capabilities you're really only talking about one major plus point, as discussed above. He doesn't have the vision to play as a number 10, takes too many touches to play in a fast counter attacking team - he won't lose the ball as readily as many, but he won't release it quickly enough either, often running in circles on the spot. The rest of his game is decent enough but not outstanding, he won't ever drop to the depths of some of the performances we see from Lawrence, but without making it all about him then you'll see a player who, in pure goals and assists numbers, is little more productive than anyone else in the division.

Lawrence is crap but he and Ince still scored the same number of goals last season. Andreas Weimann is a terrible footballer, but his numbers were ahead of Ince's last season and it looks like that may even continue into this season.

I can't believe I've been drawn into yet another Ince debate, but it is what it is.

Anyway, her's some proof of how crap Lawrence is and how brilliant Ince was (as long as you ignore absolutely everything written above and don't look at the Shots column)

 

 

[Sparkle]

6 hours ago, cheron85 said:

Who scored suggests about evens in contribution first and second half across his career - Obviously a few more second half apps, but about the same number of minutes

FH - Mins 7112, Goals 14, Good dribbles 150, Key Passes 129

SH - Mins 6789, Goals 15, Good Dribbles 140, Key Passes 135

Can't break it down for just us but getting on for half of his total mins are now for Derby - And his returns have been improving as he's got older

Fair enough ! Just seems like it 

[cannable]

1 hour ago, Coconut said:

Ince made fewer appearances but he had more minutes on the pitch. Ince was almost always played in his best position, but to facilitate that Russell would be shoved to the left when he's more productive from the right. Play Ince in the middle or on the left and his goal stats would be considerably worse too.

He doesn't have the vision to play as a number 10

You can defend a player without putting another player down. Especially when the facts are that in six starts as a #10 he scored three, created two and had another ruled out due to a clown of a ref not playing advantage as Ince lashed the ball into an empty net. 

Coming off the bench or being moved to #10 he scored two, created one and hit the woodwork in 120 minutes of football spanning four games.

Even when he played on the left-wing under Wassall, he scored four and created four in thirteen starts… 

[cheron85]

55 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Ince made fewer appearances but he had more minutes on the pitch. Ince was almost always played in his best position, but to facilitate that Russell would be shoved to the left when he's more productive from the right. Play Ince in the middle or on the left and his goal stats would be considerably worse too.

I'm not sure that's true - Ince isn't the greatest player ever (as showcased in his Premier League spell) but he did very well for us

Russell played on the right long before Ince joined us - He played over there in 13/14 when Ward was on the left - And I'm pretty sure it was done cos he's right footed? That's where he scored the corker against Forest from in the 5 0

Not sure why we bother arguing one of the other - They were both good for us, both given endless grief by some sections of the support, both probably better deliverers than we gave them credit for and (for me) both better than FloJo (unfortunately)

55 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Anyway, her's some proof of how crap Lawrence is and how brilliant Ince was (as long as you ignore absolutely everything written above and don't look at the Shots column)

I actually think the shots is a positive sign - Mins per shot shows he gets into more shooting positions per game than any of the others and his shots to goals ratio isn't far off Wilson's showing that his having more shots is a good thing - You seems to assume more shot = bad?

If I had Ince, Russell, Lawrence and (for arguments sake) Bennett available right now for us I'd be a very happy boy

[May Contain Nuts]

More shots is bad when it's twice as many as other players in your squad, consistently, over many seasons, whichever club you play for and no matter how successful or unsuccessful those shots are.

There's a big difference between having more shots than other players and eclipsing the number of shots other players have. it amazes me that people just brush this aside and pretend that other players were given equal opportunity to perform. It's not a positive sign, it's not 'carrying the team', its not a sustainable tactic for success.

If you want to destroy your team, make Ince your standout player, don't make Ince your standout player and he's good for maybe 7 goals a season, which is still better than some players, but not division leading and not worth prioritising over team performance.

Wilson is a good comparison, but he was moved into central midfield a number of times and we didn't make a point of robbing other players of opportunities to make sure he got good stats.

He's a good player but duck me the amount of crying that's gone on since he left you'd think he single handedly pushed Derby County onto another level when the reality is he got a LOT more out of his time here than we did as a club.

Unlike the last post this one is very rushed and may appear a bit reactive, I'm off out to a gig, have a nice night everybody!

[May Contain Nuts]

50 minutes ago, cannable said:

You can defend a player without putting another player down

Works both ways. You can criticise a player without making invalid comparisons to other players not played in the same teams with the same tactics.

...and yet every discussion about our attacking play ends up with some silly billy making a comparison to Ince without taking anything but goals scored into consideration.

McClaren's biggest mistake was bringing in Ince & Bent, rather than players who (albeit of lesser quality) would have suited the system, instead it changed the way we played completely even if it provided a short term fix. McClaren 2's biggest mistake was not realising that the short term fix wasn't the long term answer. Some of that was down to circumstance (no Martin) but by that point the island haired rick  had become infatuated with the idea that Ince was "worth 15 goals a season, and as many assists!" (baalocks) so even bringing Martin back wouldn't have worked out for him.

Build Ince a bloody statue and be done with it so all of the mourners can pay their weekly visit.

We've been a better team for being rid of him, even if his 'direct replacements' are crap.

 

[cannable]

1 hour ago, Coconut said:

McClaren's biggest mistake was bringing in Ince & Bent, rather than players who (albeit of lesser quality) would have suited the system, instead it changed the way we played completely even if it provided a short term fix. McClaren 2's biggest mistake was not realising that the short term fix wasn't the long term answer. Some of that was down to circumstance (no Martin) but by that point the island haired rick  had become infatuated with the idea that Ince was "worth 15 goals a season, and as many assists!" (baalocks) so even bringing Martin back wouldn't have worked out for him.

It’s alright saying that without the context of the situation though. We’d spent all summer trying to bring in proper cover for Martin, Nuhui and Jutkciewicz to name two, but we ended up having to settle on Leon Best. It soon became apparent that he was useless and so we settled on Bent in the January. 

We unexpectedly lost Ibe, Russell injured his hammy and Dawkins lost his mother all in January. Ward only came back from injury himself in the January. We needed wingers. 

Within eight games of Ince coming in we’ve got no; Martin, Bent, Dawkins, Buxton, Whitbread, Eustace, Mascarell or Thorne. 

Even if you’re talking about Mac 2, the same is true, barring Bent. The first few games he spent trying to get us playing football again but a spine of Vydra, Johnson and Pearce just wasn’t working. 

And so he organised us, had us defending deep, introduced Bent and gave Ince more freedom and we rocketed up to fifth. 

It only went wrong again when he thought Nugent and de Sart was enough to get us playing football again.