If Kieran Dowell is the answer, what is the question?

[The_Sheriff]

1 hour ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

Is the question, who isn’t rated at all by friends of mine who have season tickets at Forest and Sheff Utd? 

What happens when both teams play at home 3pm Saturday? Surely in that case your friends go to Bramall lane?

[Ambitious]

We have a surplus of players who play in the CM roles, bearing in mind we play two: 

Shinnie - I initially thought he was bought in for a CDM role, but obviously not. He's had a run out in the cup, a small amount of preseason games, but hasn't stood out. He obviously isn't showing enough in training to get that chance, especially as Knight seems to be favoured. 

Dowell - For me, he's our most talented player technically in these positions. He's getting afforded time and earnt his first assist on Saturday. He definitely has shortcomings he needs to overcome. 

Evans - arguably been the best performer in these two positions so far this season, although he's definitely more of a defensive minded midfielder than an attacking one. 

Holmes - I'm quite frankly pinning my hopes on Holmes to come in and pick up where he left off. I think if he can it relieves a lot of the questions we have over this team. Holmes looked a really good player last season, although he needs to add goals and assists to his game. 

Knight/Sibley/Bird - In an ideal world, one of these have a breakout year and becomes the next Hendrick/Hughes. The likelihood is Knight, then Sibley and finally Bird. I think the latter has been tasked with a CDM role in the past and at his age, stature, he needs to be playing further forward. All three are technically sound, but it's about who can adapt quicker. 

Rooney, you would expect, will come in and take the most advanced role. I just worry about our quality up until that point. We've played three games in the league and hardly any of them have had a sniff of a goal. I think Dowell is probably the only one to have shot on target. 

[May Contain Nuts]

This always felt more of a Nigel Clough era PL loan signing to me rather than a McClaren or Lampard era loan - by that I do mean a level above the Clough standard which usually varied from "Here, have a player who won't be ready for The Championship for another 2 years, he might never be, we just want you to help toughen him up a little" to "We know he's not good enough and never will be, but this is just the done thing, yeah, and you're desperate, so what's to lose?", just not someone who I'd expect to have the quality to come in and be an essential of a team trying to get promoted.

Mount & Wilson came in off the back of impressive loan spells elsewehere (Tomori less so) but before they'd even played for us you knew, or at least had the feeling, that they had the ability to be key players at this level, that if it weren't for Lampard being here they'd possibly have been sent to a lower PL level team, but nobody would have expected them to feature for a top six / Champions League side.

Dowell? As good a reputation as Everton have for their youth teams, Everton are 'only' a mid-table PL team, I think if they really expect him to be a future star for them then they wouldn't have bothered sending him out on loan, he'd be a regular feature in their squad.

I'm not expecting him to tear the league a new one off the back of a loan spell at mid-table Forest where he scored a few long rangers (given enough opportunities anyone can hit a purple patch, see Nick Blackman!) but aside from that was ineffective for more than half of the season, and a spell at Sheff Utd where he was never likely to become first choice in a team which had so much momentum and togetherness on their side.

 

I've written and rewritten so many parts of this post that I can't remember what my point was.

[SaintRam]

My primary complaint against Dowell from the performances so far is that he seems to always drop into a mode, at some point in the game (was far later against Stoke than earlier games), where he just begins to look very nonchalant. 

He starts being brushed away from 50/50s, starts loosely swinging legs at passes that are rarely on target, and the ball just starts bouncing off him. At no point, in this mode, does he ever get the opportunity to attempt to dribble; which seems to be his strength.

However, he seems to have two settings; the above, and then how he started against Stoke. Turns excellently on the ball, moves forward with urgency, able to take it past players, positions himself well around the area and has decent vision.

 

If he remains this topsy turvy player for the remainder of his time with us, it wouldn't be the end of the world; but hopefully he settles into more consistently being the good ball player we have definitely seen in bits so far.

[Srg]

Thought it was his best game on Saturday. Cocu definitely rates him, but although he can do it, when he drops in and has to do the running in the defensive midfield role for two players, he doesn't look half the player he is when he's in a more advanced role.

[Raich Carter]

Very strong, tries to be positive, settling into a new side that is also adapting into a revised system, good in the air  - decent all rounder  

But... doesn’t seem creative or play with much flair and doesn’t play far enough up the pitch. 

I think there’s a very good player in there but needs games. 

[IlsonDerby]

19 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said:

It is depressing when you put it that way.

It's depressing that the merit or otherwise of players can't be debated without someone saying players are being written off by mid August, when no one on the thread has stated that, as far as I can see.

Try reading what's been written, rather than what you thinks been written.

Perfectly capable of reading chap. If you don't pick up on the negative undertones (and out right negativity) from a lot of posts (I never pointed to the OP as a source of negativity but to the thread as a whole) then that's on you not on me.

 

I think we can debate players but some of the comments made have just essentially written off the guy who assisted our first goal and won the pen for our second goal. 

So my 'non whingey' input to this thread is...

 

The question is 'Derby would have lost two nil if it wasn't for this player creating the first and winning the penalty for the second. Who is the player in question?' 

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

Perfectly capable of reading chap. If you don't pick up on the negative undertones (and out right negativity) from a lot of posts (I never pointed to the OP as a source of negativity but to the thread as a whole) then that's on you not on me.

 

I think we can debate players but some of the comments made have just essentially written off the guy who assisted our first goal and won the pen for our second goal. 

So my 'non whingey' input to this thread is...

 

The question is 'Derby would have lost two nil if it wasn't for this player creating the first and winning the penalty for the second. Who is the player in question?' 

Kieran Evans?

[IlsonDerby]

18 hours ago, Alpha said:

Yep. 

As always the 'anti' faction is as exasperating as whatever they're against because they too are looking for any excuse.

It's in the Tom Lawrence thread too. 

'Defending our own players is exasperating to read' ? the unjust/hysterical criticism is far worse to read in my opinion. 

18 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said:

I can see the point in letting players have 15 games before we debate them in any way, I just don't see why we can't talk about them before that point with the obvious caveat that they've not had enough games.

If they turn it around then well done, if they don't then what's the problem, it's not like a bunch of people discussing them has predispositioned the outcome.

I agree with your first sentence but let's be honest, that caveat was certainly absent from a lot of posts. 

He might turn out to be woeful and I won't lie about his impact further on in the season. Just think some of the criticism is harsh considering he's had to replace a guy who's just scored for Chelsea in the prem... 

[bmram]

Personally thought Dowells best performance for us so far has been the second half v Swansea when he dropped into a 2 with Huddlestone. Felt like he broke the lines and gave us more of a defence to attack transition. His interchange in the #10 role is tidy enough but he's a bit hampered by the wingers both wanting to come inside to his space and isn't necessarily the quickest to turn on the ball and set an attack from there. I'd like to see the 4-2-3-1 with Marriott in the #10 just behind Waghorn (similar to the system Marriott & Martin played in Florida), then Dowell can play in the 2 with one of the CDMs which mobilises that area of the pitch more. Maybe more of a formation to try at home than when we need to be solid on the road.

[Alph]

4 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

'Defending our own players is exasperating to read' ? the unjust/hysterical criticism is far worse to read in my opinion. 

 

Where is the unjust hysterical criticism? 

It was a thread to discuss how Dowell has started. It didn't start off slagging him off. He didn't need defending because he wasn't under attack. And neither was Lawrence in that thread either. 

They're our own players too. 

[Alph]

On 17/08/2019 at 19:30, reverendo de duivel said:

Nice neat and tidy player, but what are we missing that he answers?

I'm struggling to see it.

 

 

On 17/08/2019 at 20:08, Alpha said:

I'm not a fan so far. I hope it's because he's trying too hard but if the Rams were a Roman army then Dowell would be a skirmisher

Sent forward to harass the enemy and soften them up. 

He doesn't seem to have a killer instinct in the final third. Mount would see a pass that cuts a team open. Wilson would see a gap to shoot through. Travel back in time and Ward would see an opening to wriggle through. Bryson would see a space to attack. I mean Lawrence would dribble through a brick wall. 

Dowell plays a nice game. One where nobody will try and tackle him and somebody else is bound to create a chance.

He's nothingness. Along with FloJo he's listening to Bob Marley and making peace for John Lennon. 

100% deserves more opportunity. He's not been especially bad. He's young and it's a new club. 

But yeah, to evaluate his contribution so far... not very good. A passenger not a playmaker. 

However there are times he's not helped by Lawrence playing on his own again and Waghorn has the first touch of Connor Sammon. 

Basically the front 4 haven't been poor but they don't really help each other. No great understanding/partnerships look to be developing. 

@IlsonDerby is there unjust hysterical criticism here? 

[Nuwtfly]

Not been overly impressed so far, but the signs were there on Saturday. 

He's a talented player. But he's still got to learn Cocu's style, and how to work with a whole new set of teammates. I think Big Phil will give him time, and so should we.

Perhaps we'll come back to this around Christmas time and have a better idea what the question is.

[IlsonDerby]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Where is the unjust hysterical criticism? 

It was a thread to discuss how Dowell has started. It didn't start off slagging him off. He didn't need defending because he wasn't under attack. And neither was Lawrence in that thread either. 

They're our own players too. 

It didn’t start it as a slagging but didn’t take long for some unfair comments to be thrown around after around 4 matches.

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

 

@IlsonDerby is there unjust hysterical criticism here? 

Have I accused you personally of criticism? 

 

[Alph]

29 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

It didn’t start it as a slagging but didn’t take long for some unfair comments to be thrown around after around 4 matches.

Have I accused you personally of criticism? 

 

I've not seen any. It was a genuine question. 

Two threads you've got anti moaners there to shut moaners down but unless I've missed it I don't think anyone has said anything condemning. 

I'm annoyed by hysterical criticism as much as you. But I also find the other side as bad. 

Just because it creates a fiery atmosphere on the forum and people start lashing out at each other based on nothing really. 

People can be discussing the positives of Chris Martin or the negatives of Kieran Dowell. 

In the Martin thread you'll get "he's gone, move on" and in the other thread you'll get "he's played 1 game and we are writing the season off" type comments. 

Its possible I've done it myself. It just creates a bit of conflict when really we should be able to chat about this guy being crap today or that guy being good without others suggesting folks are saying stuff they actually aren't. 

There are one or two that pretty much exist in the land of hysteria. Seeing what they want to see and ignoring what they don't want to acknowledge. Most folk try to call it as they say it. 

I like it when a good friendly debate goes on.

[Comrade 86]

He looks a decent player to me. Technically I'd say he's right up there, but he does need to show some more consistency before I can get on my hysterical happy-clapper tip. 

[Andicis]

Potential there, certainly. I'd certainly like to see some more composure in the final third, but he's been solid. He has the unfortunate situation of coming in after Mason Mount, one of the best midfielders we've had in recent years, if not the best. I think he'll come good.

[jono]

On 17/08/2019 at 20:08, Alpha said:

I'm not a fan so far. I hope it's because he's trying too hard but if the Rams were a Roman army then Dowell would be a skirmisher

Sent forward to harass the enemy and soften them up. 

He doesn't seem to have a killer instinct in the final third. Mount would see a pass that cuts a team open. Wilson would see a gap to shoot through. Travel back in time and Ward would see an opening to wriggle through. Bryson would see a space to attack. I mean Lawrence would dribble through a brick wall. 

Dowell plays a nice game. One where nobody will try and tackle him and somebody else is bound to create a chance.

He's nothingness. Along with FloJo he's listening to Bob Marley and making peace for John Lennon. 

100% deserves more opportunity. He's not been especially bad. He's young and it's a new club. 

But yeah, to evaluate his contribution so far... not very good. A passenger not a playmaker. 

However there are times he's not helped by Lawrence playing on his own again and Waghorn has the first touch of Connor Sammon. 

Basically the front 4 haven't been poor but they don't really help each other. No great understanding/partnerships look to be developing. 

Top post for me. We don’t know, it’s early days. I saw a couple of real flashes on the ball that tell me there is a player there but i’ve Seen a lack of grit and endeavour as well. I reckon he’s young, new boy, maybe doesn’t make friends quickly, needs to feel like he belongs. Give him time before we make judgment 

[IlsonDerby]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

I've not seen any. It was a genuine question. 

Two threads you've got anti moaners there to shut moaners down but unless I've missed it I don't think anyone has said anything condemning. 

I'm annoyed by hysterical criticism as much as you. But I also find the other side as bad. 

Just because it creates a fiery atmosphere on the forum and people start lashing out at each other based on nothing really. 

People can be discussing the positives of Chris Martin or the negatives of Kieran Dowell. 

In the Martin thread you'll get "he's gone, move on" and in the other thread you'll get "he's played 1 game and we are writing the season off" type comments. 

Its possible I've done it myself. It just creates a bit of conflict when really we should be able to chat about this guy being crap today or that guy being good without others suggesting folks are saying stuff they actually aren't. 

There are one or two that pretty much exist in the land of hysteria. Seeing what they want to see and ignoring what they don't want to acknowledge. Most folk try to call it as they say it. 

I like it when a good friendly debate goes on.

Fair enough. I know we’re the same as any other club when it comes to fans but just feels like we’re so quick to whinge. 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, IlsonDerby said:

Fair enough. I know we’re the same as any other club when it comes to fans but just feels like we’re so quick to whinge. 

It feels like Pride Park has shorter patience than any other Champ ground. We get restless within 15/20 mins often