v Bristol City (H) Match Thread

[Coneheadjohn]

36 minutes ago, ossieram said:

Didn't Mel say that they only count those that actually attend the game nowadays?

 Sam Rush is operating the clicker mind so you could get anything.

[Duracell]

Sometimes I think fans forget what it’s like to simply lose a game over summer.

What’s with the binary reaction to everything? That was a million miles off the worst performance last season, which was brilliant season. So we can play worse than that several times in a season and still finish in the play-offs.

Such an overreaction. We weren’t bad last night. We weren’t really any good either. 42 left to play.

I wouldn’t let it bother me, but the mass mood swings at the club are starting to affect my enjoyment of the game. We lose one match and I see abuse from my fellow fans directed at players they’re meant to be supporting, I see fans declaring in August they’d like to drive a young loanee back to their parent club for the crime of not being Mason Mount, and I see some fans claiming they know more about Marriott’s fitness than Cocu and almost seem to be suggesting that if they were in charge and were allowed to play him we would have won last night.

It’s not fun sometimes. Not anymore.

[Russell Ram]

I think we have some really good players who can mix it towards the top of the division, such as Marriott, Waghorn, Bielik, Keogh, Lawrence, Bogle (just my opinion) but we have some very ordinary players too, Roos, Evans, Joz, Bennett, Huddlestone, Malone. Half are good, half are...not. That means we have to expect a season of 8/9th - 13/14th I think in all realistic honesty.

To the point that fans don't have patience anymore, I do agree with that, up to a point. There have been previous posts about ticket prices for individual games and if we also take into consideration season tickets and the cost, they are generally over £500 now. Where price increases, so does expectation. If you pay £10 for a watch for example, your expectations of how long it will last and the quality of time keeping will vary than if you paid £100 for a watch. It is only natural to think this way. The cost of football since I started going (I am over 40) has gotten silly. If you are paying over £30 for a championship match, you are going to want something back for that. The whole mantra of just pitching up and supporting through thick and thin was prevalent on the pop side when the cost of entry was under a tenner. 

[Sasha]

2 hours ago, Roots Manuva said:

was it just me are was there large sections of the crowd booing Kasey Palmer when he came off? what has he done to merit that? didn't leave on bad terms did he...was disappointed Lampard didn't look to get him back in personally.. though quickly got over that when mount & Wilson arrived.

think I would feel more comfortable going forward with wing backs at least until we get Bogle back, Jozefzoon can't cross for toffee though he seemed to be seeing a lot more of the ball and was far more involved 2nd half, if we have no alternative zoon at RWB Lowe at LWB and take Malone out of the firing line.

I'm all for Bielik getting a run of the games in a deep midfield role though have to admit he looked more comfortable in the middle of a back 3...him & huddlestone didn't work well in the middle IMO. know he played for the U23's the other night though feel it doesn't bode well for Shinnie when we have Bielik, Huddlestone, Evans & Knight all getting minutes ahead of him.. still hoping he gets chance to prove himself.

Agree booing Palmer pathetic. Equally pathetic booing our team off the pitch at half time. Like that's going to make the boys come bouncing back for second half, full of confidence . Idiots. 

[Bubbles]

8 minutes ago, Russell Ram said:

I think we have some really good players who can mix it towards the top of the division, such as Marriott, Waghorn, Bielik, Keogh, Lawrence, Bogle (just my opinion) but we have some very ordinary players too, Roos, Evans, Joz, Bennett, Huddlestone, Malone. Half are good, half are...not. That means we have to expect a season of 8/9th - 13/14th I think in all realistic honesty.

To the point that fans don't have patience anymore, I do agree with that, up to a point. There have been previous posts about ticket prices for individual games and if we also take into consideration season tickets and the cost, they are generally over £500 now. Where price increases, so does expectation. If you pay £10 for a watch for example, your expectations of how long it will last and the quality of time keeping will vary than if you paid £100 for a watch. It is only natural to think this way. The cost of football since I started going (I am over 40) has gotten silly. If you are paying over £30 for a championship match, you are going to want something back for that. The whole mantra of just pitching up and supporting through thick and thin was prevalent on the pop side when the cost of entry was under a tenner. 

To an extent I agree, but thats modern day football, in't it? As parachute payments increase, as teams start splashing more and more money the prices HAVE to go up, to sustain a fight for the top 6 we need to charge that much to increase the revenue and be able to spend... 

Its a shame really, no one should have to pay that much for football... but it is what it is.

 

[Duracell]

8 minutes ago, Russell Ram said:

 

To the point that fans don't have patience anymore, I do agree with that, up to a point. There have been previous posts about ticket prices for individual games and if we also take into consideration season tickets and the cost, they are generally over £500 now. Where price increases, so does expectation. If you pay £10 for a watch for example, your expectations of how long it will last and the quality of time keeping will vary than if you paid £100 for a watch. It is only natural to think this way. The cost of football since I started going (I am over 40) has gotten silly. If you are paying over £30 for a championship match, you are going to want something back for that. The whole mantra of just pitching up and supporting through thick and thin was prevalent on the pop side when the cost of entry was under a tenner. 

I would get this kind of talk if we were mid-table at Christmas, and it was starting to look like promotion was off the cards. I just can’t understand the language, vitriol and bile being spouted after the first defeat of the season.

This isn’t about supporting through thick and thin. It’s neither thick nor thin - it’s August.

Can only imagine what a Bury or Bolton fan would make of us losing our minds about our first defeat of the season, beaten narrowly by fellow play-off hopefuls.

You have made an excellent point about the cost of football. Maybe it has turned some into consumers rather than supporters. I don’t understand why you’d spend so much money to needlessly raise your blood pressure at the start of the season, though.

[Animal is a Ram]

There's an utter gobsite a few rows behind me. Every player was a ****, but mostly Josefzoon. Even Twan Scheepers got it just for walking on with the subs at half time. Wish someone would turn around and say if you think its that bad, just go. What's the point in turning up if that's all you're going to do? People can have an opinion, but he just had nothing positive to say.

Other than that, thought the atmosphere was okay last night.

We weren't even that bad, there were plenty worse performances last season. Bristol City took the two chances they got, then the back 5 did the rest. Shame we couldn't do the same but for a majestic finish from Marriott, so pleased to hear he might be fit to start Saturday.

The formation in the second half looks like it might have some promise. When we have the players back, I'd go

                             Roos

                 Keogh Bielik Clarke
Bogle                                             Lowe
                    Dowell    Holmes
                          Lawrence

                   Waghorn   Marriott

 

[Duracell]

5 minutes ago, Sasha said:

Agree booing Palmer pathetic. Equally pathetic booing our team off the pitch at half time. Like that's going to make the boys come bouncing back for second half, full of confidence . Idiots. 

I interpreted those boos - very few of them - to be directed at the officials.

[TibshelfRam]

My take aways from last night:

- No need to panic. 42 games left. We are always going to lose some games. Cocu is still getting to grips with his best side, the new players are still getting to grips with the style and system etc. A loss might not be a bad thing if it enables us to kick start the season.

- With Bogle to come back, with Bielik to get to full fitness, with Holmes to come back in and with Marriott to get to 100% we start to look a much better side.

- Bristol City looked decent. I think they'll challenge for top 6. Very solid and well organised - we really struggled to penetrate. With Afobe and Weimann up top they are dangerous on the break and will cause teams problems.

- We weren't THAT bad. We actually created a few nice bits and some of our movement was better. I actually thought that, going forward, we had improved slightly on previous games. And were in not for a couple of mindless individual errors, we weren't caused too many problems.

Tactics

- One major positive is that we have tactical flexibility - something that we've perhaps needed for some time. Long term, I still think that 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is the way for us to go, but knowing that we have the players to play with a 3-4-1-2 gives us another option and Cocu seems happy to use it.

- Even if we play a 4-3-3, at times it can become a 3 at the back just naturally and organically. If Bielik sits in front of the back 4, he can drop in as we attack and allow the full backs to bomb on, even Keogh to move forward and get Lawrence more centrally. Which means that...

- ...we get too bogged down in formations on here. What I can see from Cocu's style is that we are a much more fluid team positionally. Our formation is largely redundant and players will drop in and provide where it is needed. If we line up 4-3-3, it does not mean that we are going to play that rigidly for 90 minutes.

Players

- Bogle is a huge miss. We lack so much of an attacking threat from out wide without him. Lowe is doing an admirable job out there but he doesn't give us the same. He looked better when moved out left and we looked better when Zoon gave us some width out there.

- Malone is a player that I have defended on a number of occasions, but I do think that the time is coming to move him out of the first team. Nothing against him, I just feel that Lowe's spell in Scotland and his exposure to the first team has matured him and he should be our first choice left back moving forward once Bogle returns. I just think he's a better option and with Bogle and Lowe on either side, we look dangerous.

- After a slightly shaky start, Bielik showed his worth. He's a rolls royce player. Able to find a pass superbly and always in control defensively. Will be a huge asset for us moving forwards as we've missed a player like him for years. Felt he was wasted in a back 3, personally. Once it became apparent that Bristol City were not going to attack and would sit in second half, I'd have put Huddlestone into the back 3, and moved Bielik into the middle - he was always looking to move it forwards and would have given us more bite in the middle when we needed to win it back quickly to build an attack.

- Huddlestone is not what we need in a game like that. I think he still has a role to play but not last night. Bristol City were sitting back and allowing us the ball - Huddlestone doesn't know what to do in that situation as he just slows the game down so much. For me, he only plays when we are away from home and are going to be up against it as he can put his foot on it and control the game. We need a more mobile option in the middle last night - we needed a box to box player to play in there (Holmes may be that man moving forwards) as that would complement Bielik and Dowell. In a game like last night, and with the quality Bielik has, we have no need to play 2xDMs.

- Jozefzoon is unfairly scapegoated. His final ball wasn't always great but the overreaction amongst fans was too much. It was almost like they were waiting for him to fail. I actually felt he did okay after coming on and gave us some much needed width on the right.

- Bennett is lost on me. I just don't see what he provides. He has to be an impact sub, not technically good enough to start.

- Lawrence looked brighter and got more involved. Should've scored. Should've had more decisions given his way.

- Waghorn needs players closer to him - so isolated, especially against a back 3. Highlights why we didn't need 2xDMs. A box to box player solves that.

- Marriott is a quality goalscorer. But I don't agree with all the 'he has to start' stuff. In that first half, what difference would he actually have made? We didn't create enough chances. We saw so many games like that last season where he was invisible. We need to create more if Marriott starts as he's not a striker who brings others into the game. As it stands, I have no problem with bringing him off the bench to give us something different. May well start v West Brom as I'd expect a more open game where he may be able to get chances. THAT SAID, he is clearly a striker with enormous quality and I would love to see him start. But we need to be creating more chances and not isolating our striker for that to happen.

- Holmes can't come back soon enough. He's exactly what we're missing  - the energetic box to box player in the middle. we so missed that last night.

- Roos doesn't fill me with confidence.

The ref

Absolutely abysmal performance. Some strange decisions which absolutely affected how we played. every time we were in the ascendancy, we were penalised. 

West Brom

Could actually be just what we need - a team who will likely come at us more and there may be more space for us to create chances. If we can grab a win, on TV, against promotion favourites, last night is forgotten. We seem to struggle against teams who just want to sit back and absorb pressure - I'd be surprised to see a Slaven Bilic side play that way.

Would bring in Knight for Huddlestone for greater energy in midfield and would go with Paterson ahead of Bennett wide right. 4-3-3.

 

Still think that it has been a solid start to the season. Encouraged by what Cocu had to say after the game and the changes he made in game. Still positive about the season ahead. I think that some fans need to put the start into perspective.

[Duracell]

Just now, Animal is a Ram said:

There's an utter gobsite a few rows behind me. Every player was a ****, but mostly Josefzoon. Even Twan Scheepers got it just for walking on with the subs at half time. Wish someone would turn around and say if you think its that bad, just go. What's the point in turning up if that's all you're going to do? People can have an opinion, but he just had nothing positive to say.

 

 

Ah, the old “I’m entitled to my opinion” retort. This is often used by people who don’t offer opinions. 

“Jozefzoon isn’t good enough to play for Derby because I don’t think his crossing offers the quality we need” is an opinion.

Shouting abuse at a player is not an opinion.

I don’t know how many footballers have to say the abuse gets to them before people consider what they’re doing. Why would you go out to make a player in the team you want to win even worse at football, and therefore make your team more likely to win?

Surely, if Jozefzoon is as useless as some boo-boys make out, the abuse is going to make his job even harder?

[Animal is a Ram]

5 minutes ago, Sasha said:

Agree booing Palmer pathetic. Equally pathetic booing our team off the pitch at half time. Like that's going to make the boys come bouncing back for second half, full of confidence . Idiots. 

Suspect this may have been aimed at the referee - thought he was awful.

[King Kevin]

54 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Sometimes I think fans forget what it’s like to simply lose a game over summer.

What’s with the binary reaction to everything? That was a million miles off the worst performance last season, which was brilliant season. So we can play worse than that several times in a season and still finish in the play-offs.

Such an overreaction. We weren’t bad last night. We weren’t really any good either. 42 left to play.

I wouldn’t let it bother me, but the mass mood swings at the club are starting to affect my enjoyment of the game. We lose one match and I see abuse from my fellow fans directed at players they’re meant to be supporting, I see fans declaring in August they’d like to drive a young loanee back to their parent club for the crime of not being Mason Mount, and I see some fans claiming they know more about Marriott’s fitness than Cocu and almost seem to be suggesting that if they were in charge and were allowed to play him we would have won last night.

It’s not fun sometimes. Not anymore.

Just remember it's not just about the football it's a pint with your mates and a day out .The football you can't control and it was dire yesterday but a pint in the Waterfall and a dog burger and a night out with your mate who you have been watching Derby with since God was lad [sorry manager ] makes up for it.

[Jimbo Ram]

2 hours ago, ossieram said:

Didn't Mel say that they only count those that actually attend the game nowadays?

I watched on the red button so could see all the gaps in the North Stand and East Stand....very surprised if there was anything near 25,000 there? What did you think?

[Jimbo Ram]

18 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

Just remember it's not just about the football it's a pint with your mates and a day out .The football you can't control and it was dire yesterday but a pint in the Waterfall and a dog burger and a night out with your mate who you have been watching Derby with since God was lad [sorry manager ] makes up for it.

The number of times me and my son have said we enjoyed the 5 pints and cheese roll in the Brunswick before the game more than the football.....enjoying the footie is just a bonus really....

[Duracell]

1 minute ago, Jimbo Ram said:

The number of times me and my son have said we enjoyed the 5 pints and cheese roll in the Brunswick before the game more than the football.....enjoying the footie is just a bonus really....

All fun and games in the Brunny until the Black Sabbath runs out...

[Jimbo Ram]

31 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

There's an utter gobsite a few rows behind me. Every player was a ****, but mostly Josefzoon. Even Twan Scheepers got it just for walking on with the subs at half time. Wish someone would turn around and say if you think its that bad, just go. What's the point in turning up if that's all you're going to do? People can have an opinion, but he just had nothing positive to say.

Other than that, thought the atmosphere was okay last night.

We weren't even that bad, there were plenty worse performances last season. Bristol City took the two chances they got, then the back 5 did the rest. Shame we couldn't do the same but for a majestic finish from Marriott, so pleased to hear he might be fit to start Saturday.

The formation in the second half looks like it might have some promise. When we have the players back, I'd go

                             Roos

                 Keogh Bielik Clarke
Bogle                                             Lowe
                    Dowell    Holmes
                          Lawrence

                   Waghorn   Marriott

 

Still think we need a gritty ball winner and tackler in the midfield 3, thought Shinnie was meant to be the man. That midfield 3 looks too lightweight to me. How about Evans in the back 3 and Bielik instead of Dowell in midfield?....much prefer the 2 up top though....

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

13 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

The number of times me and my son have said we enjoyed the 5 pints and cheese roll in the Brunswick before the game more than the football.....enjoying the footie is just a bonus really....

 

11 minutes ago, Duracell said:

All fun and games in the Brunny until the Black Sabbath runs out...

I do enjoy the Brunswick.  Last time I was there post match on a Saturday some young fellas walked in and confidently ordered, "five sambuccas mate" only to be told "we don't serve that **** here this ain't a Weatherspoons".

Perfect. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I liked Cocu's post match interviews and reaction. He is careful and considered and has a clinical approach I like. I suspect he sees all the things the fans do and much more. Lets give him time to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I'm still expecting a decent season.

[Edtheram]

2 hours ago, Jourdan said:

The trouble for Cocu is that we are not a particularly patient fan base. It’s August and already people are starting to crack.

We look at Leeds and a coach like Bielsa and remember how quickly their players bought into his methods and how he was able to elevate a previously average group of players and wish that was us. I know that I was positive throughout pre season (despite some worrying signs) thinking Cocu could have the same effect.

For me, we have to remember we are Derby County. It’s never as straightforward as that.

The expectation is crippling. You can guarantee that if we lose on Saturday and don’t perform well, Cocu will already be under pressure. Sad but true.

I think Cocu simply needs time. We can’t be too harsh on him. He is not a miracle worker. We can’t be too harsh on the club either. Lampard left us in a difficult spot.

That said, I think it is fair to say that the club didn’t really prepare very well for the eventuality of his departure and putting contingency plans in place for a new manager.

Having had a summer of real upheaval, I always felt less would have been more on the recruitment front. If you have a clear, measured, well thought out plan and have identified the right players, go for it. But appointing a new manager 4-5 weeks out from the start of the season, how likely was that ever going to be?

In the absence of good planning, we should have just let Cocu drum his ideas into the existing group. Instead, we fell into the trap of feeling obliged to do business.  The way it looks to me is Cocu put his trust in the recruitment team to handle it and our lack of planning and foresight has now been exposed.

The more we struggle, the more we are going to see people look at the Rooney signing and question whether it was wise to invest all of our efforts into getting him here, when we could have spent the time, money and energy bringing in a player or two who could help the team right away.

Bielik and Clarke look the right kind of signings on paper, but we have to remember that they are young and inexperienced at this level, so the desired impact could be weeks or months away.

The rest? You have to wonder why we even bothered.

He needs time. But the pressure you speak about will only build if we dont win Saturday. I record at home would be played 3 and if we dont win drew 2 lost 1, Thats hardly going to keep the "quick to boo" fans happy. Follow that up by a beating at Forest (in the cup i know but all the same) then the wind could well and truly be knocked out of our sails. We have tough games to come before the break so we need to switch on as a team now and start playing our football. Cocu has to choose a formation and stick with it hes changed formation at half time in 3 of the 4 games so far which doesn't look good. with Bogle back and Marriott fully fit we should be better, plus players still need to adapt and settle in. The season isn't won or lost in August, if we can be in and around it come January we will see Rooney come in which is a massive positive and Cocu can hopefully bring in the players we need to push on in the second half of the season.

[EnigmaRam]

42 minutes ago, Duracell said:

All fun and games in the Brunny until the Black Sabbath runs out...

Need some more change for the duke box then mate ?