Scott Sinclair - signed for PNE

[rammieib]

57 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

Don't write Paterson off just yet.

He is still adapting to a new city and new teammates. He will be okay. 

Reminded me of Jamie Ward against Scunthorpe... bang average

[bimmerman]

1 hour ago, rammieib said:

Reminded me of Jamie Ward against Scunthorpe... bang average

Nah, Jamie Ward had some motivation 

[G STAR RAM]

13 hours ago, rammieib said:

Reminded me of Jamie Ward against Scunthorpe... bang average

Average in what respect? In terms of that game? In terms of our team? In terms of the division we play in? Or just as a footballer in general?

[RandomAccessMemory]

Following on from the discussion on the previous page, judging from the tweet below, it seems that Championship clubs definitely can sign players released before the end of the L1 and 2 window.

 

[Day]

45 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Following on from the discussion on the previous page, judging from the tweet below, it seems that Championship clubs definitely can sign players released before the end of the L1 and 2 window.

 

This was submitted on deadline day, they have only just received clearance from the EFL

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5d4da8393dda7/update-on-the-transfer-of-tomer-hemed

[RandomAccessMemory]

3 minutes ago, David said:

This was submitted on deadline day, they have only just received clearance from the EFL

https://www.cafc.co.uk/news/view/5d4da8393dda7/update-on-the-transfer-of-tomer-hemed

It was, however, that was for a transfer.

He's signed as a free agent after his contract was cancelled. That sounds to me that either they got fed up of waiting for the EFL to decide, or they did decide that the transfer wasn't put through in time, and Brighton decided to cancel his contract letting him join as a free agent instead.

https://www.brightonandhovealbion.com/news/1318144/hemed-completes-charlton-move

I still think the rules on the EFL website specify this can happen

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-1----general/

Quote

‘Out of Registration Player’ shall mean any Player who has not at any time been registered with a Member Club (or club), or if he has been so registered his registration (including as a Contract Player or Non-Contract Player, or equivalent registration in any other league) expired or was cancelled at any time prior to the end of a Transfer Window (and in the case of the Summer Transfer Window, the applicable end date is that applied to Clubs in Leagues One and Two in accordance with Regulation 42.2.2) and he has not since been registered with any Club (or club).

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-6---players/

Quote

43 Registration of Players

43.1 Unless otherwise permitted by Regulation 43.2, registrations of Players are only permitted during a Transfer Window.

43.2 Subject always to the provisions of Regulation 43.3, after the expiry of each Transfer Window in each Season registrations of Players and transfers of registrations will, except as permitted in Regulation 57, be declined or will only be approved:

43.2.1 where the Player is an Out of Registration Player;

43.2.2 where the Player was last registered as or is being registered as a Scholar or Academy Player (subject to such conditions by which the Club making the application and the Player shall be bound); and/or

43.2.3 if agreed by The League (including where the Player was last registered with a Club (or club) which has ceased to trade, including during the Closed Period) subject to such conditions as determined by The League and by which the Club making the application and the Player shall be bound.

43.3 Where any new registration or transfer of a Player is received by The League after 5pm on the fourth Thursday in March in each Season, that Player will not be eligible to play in any match organised by The League in that Season, except as permitted in Regulation 57.

 

[Millenniumram]

I suspect that deal for hemed was to do with the previously agreed deal on deadline which allowed it to go through... I’m pretty sure there’s no way we can sign anyone who wasn’t a free agent before the end of our window 

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

It was, however, that was for a transfer.

He's signed as a free agent after his contract was cancelled. That sounds to me that either they got fed up of waiting for the EFL to decide, or they did decide that the transfer wasn't put through in time, and Brighton decided to cancel his contract letting him join as a free agent instead.

https://www.brightonandhovealbion.com/news/1318144/hemed-completes-charlton-move

I still think the rules on the EFL website specify this can happen

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-1----general/

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-6---players/

 

It seems pretty clear from the bit in section 1, but it's amazing that something like that is only clarified in the definitions section, and not explained thoroughly in the actual rules part.

[RandomAccessMemory]

7 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I suspect that deal for hemed was to do with the previously agreed deal on deadline which allowed it to go through... I’m pretty sure there’s no way we can sign anyone who wasn’t a free agent before the end of our window 

That's what I'd always thought until I looked at the rules. This year is the first one where our window is fully closed for attached players earlier than the L1 and 2 one, last year we could still loan (even with a conditional purchase) until the end of their window, so maybe that's the reason for the confusion?

I really don't know how else they can be interpreted though, it seems to quite clearly state that a player can be classed as an 'out of registration' player if their registration was cancelled up until the end of the L1 and 2 window and that they can then be signed by all clubs at any point until 5pm on the fourth Thursday in March. It looks like another loophole to me? ?‍♀️

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

It seems pretty clear from the bit in section 1, but it's amazing that something like that is only clarified in the definitions section, and not explained thoroughly in the actual rules part.

I agree, the EFL seem to like making the rules confusing though, it's no wonder there are so many loopholes to be found! ?

[Millenniumram]

12 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

That's what I'd always thought until I looked at the rules. This year is the first one where our window is fully closed for attached players earlier than the L1 and 2 one, last year we could still loan (even with a conditional purchase) until the end of their window, so maybe that's the reason for the confusion?

I really don't know how else they can be interpreted though, it seems to quite clearly state that a player can be classed as an 'out of registration' player if their registration was cancelled up until the end of the L1 and 2 window and that they can then be signed by all clubs at any point until 5pm on the fourth Thursday in March. It looks like another loophole to me? ?‍♀️

It doesn’t seem to have been covered very well exactly what the rules are after the change this season, it has to be said. I cant imagine for a second that it can be the case we can still sign players who aren’t free agents yet though- there could be all sorts of tapping up going on and it would be a ridiculous loophole. If the loophole existed I’m sure a media outlet would have made a point about it anyway.

[BathRam72]

On a side note. My wife and Scott's mum are good friends. (just thought I would throw that in)

[RandomAccessMemory]

3 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

It doesn’t seem to have been covered very well exactly what the rules are after the change this season, it has to be said. I cant imagine for a second that it can be the case we can still sign players who aren’t free agents yet though- there could be all sorts of tapping up going on and it would be a ridiculous loophole. If the loophole existed I’m sure a media outlet would have made a point about it anyway.

How do you interpret the quoted rules then? ?‍♀️

They're exactly what's on the EFL website. As it specifies the League One and League Two window end date being the applicable one (presumably for the reason that it is different to that in the Championship) it would seem to suggest they are the current rules, otherwise they wouldn't need to put that part in.

[Millenniumram]

2 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

How do you interpret the quoted rules then? ?‍♀️

They're exactly what's on the EFL website. As it specifies the League One and League Two window end date being the applicable one (presumably for the reason that it is different to that in the Championship) it would seem to suggest they are the current rules, otherwise they wouldn't need to put that part in.

I don’t know, it does read that way. I’d just be very surprised is all, maybe there’s something we’re missing

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t know, it does read that way. I’d just be very surprised is all, maybe there’s something we’re missing

It's a fairly narrow loophole - it's only useful if both the selling club and the player are willing to negotiate cancelling the players contract.  If it's deliberate (and not a mistake in how the rules were written, or us misreading them), then presumably the argument is, it's in nobodies interest to have these kind of players either shackled to clubs collecting a wage but not playing, or released after the window has closed so unable to get paid for doing their job for months.

[Millenniumram]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's a fairly narrow loophole - it's only useful if both the selling club and the player are willing to negotiate cancelling the players contract.  If it's deliberate (and not a mistake in how the rules were written, or us misreading them), then presumably the argument is, it's in nobodies interest to have these kind of players either shackled to clubs collecting a wage but not playing, or released after the window has closed so unable to get paid for doing their job for months.

Yeah it’s not likely to result in many transfers, very few players get released under contract as it’ll cost the club they’re currently at money that they need not deal out. It’ll only be in very unusual cases I’d think if it is possible.

[RandomAccessMemory]

4 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

I don’t know, it does read that way. I’d just be very surprised is all, maybe there’s something we’re missing

I thought the same thing previously, that once our window was closed we couldn't sign anyone that was released after it, but that's the definition of an out of registration player and that's the rules about registering players including out of registration ones.

I don't think there can be anything that's not mentioned between the two rules, it's not like there's a step missing, surely you become out of registration, and then you register with a new club?

It does seem surprising, but as has been proven there are obviously loopholes in the EFL rules, not all of which have been covered by the media until they get used.

If the Hemed move is a use of this loophole, as it appears it could be from the wording in the Brighton statement, it may not get the media coverage because they aren't aware.

If they believe that we can't sign players that are released after our window closing and they know Charlton have been waiting on the decision since the closing of our window, it may be assumed that has now come through and that's why he's signed.

Maybe in the next few days people will start questioning it and the media will look more closely at the move?

?‍♀️

[RandomAccessMemory]

32 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's a fairly narrow loophole - it's only useful if both the selling club and the player are willing to negotiate cancelling the players contract.  If it's deliberate (and not a mistake in how the rules were written, or us misreading them), then presumably the argument is, it's in nobodies interest to have these kind of players either shackled to clubs collecting a wage but not playing, or released after the window has closed so unable to get paid for doing their job for months.

 

22 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Yeah it’s not likely to result in many transfers, very few players get released under contract as it’ll cost the club they’re currently at money that they need not deal out. It’ll only be in very unusual cases I’d think if it is possible.

Yep, it's probably most likely to be used for players out of contract next summer that aren't playing much of a part at their current club, but a new club are prepared to take their wages on/the player is prepared to give up a portion of their wage to join a new club to play regularly.

The problems would come I guess if a club wanted a player that another club weren't prepared to release for nothing, but they have an agreement to pay more than they would for a different player from the same club in the next window. So Club A releases Player 1 to join Club B, then Club B pays Club A an increased amount for Player 2 (to cover what they would have also paid for Player 1) in the next window to get around the rules. They could also then loan Player 2 back to Club A.

Edit: Another potential scenario, is there anything to stop a player paying a club to be released? So the club they move to can pay the player a large signing on fee and the player can pay that to the club they're moving from?

[duncanjwitham]

10 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Edit: Another potential scenario, is there anything to stop a player paying a club to be released? So the club they move to can pay the player a large signing on fee and the player can pay that to the club they're moving from?

I don't know if there's a rule expressly banning this, but the fee paid to the player would count as income, and thus be taxable (at 45%). So any transfer fee is immediately significantly inflated.

[Millenniumram]

38 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

I thought the same thing previously, that once our window was closed we couldn't sign anyone that was released after it, but that's the definition of an out of registration player and that's the rules about registering players including out of registration ones.

I don't think there can be anything that's not mentioned between the two rules, it's not like there's a step missing, surely you become out of registration, and then you register with a new club?

It does seem surprising, but as has been proven there are obviously loopholes in the EFL rules, not all of which have been covered by the media until they get used.

If the Hemed move is a use of this loophole, as it appears it could be from the wording in the Brighton statement, it may not get the media coverage because they aren't aware.

If they believe that we can't sign players that are released after our window closing and they know Charlton have been waiting on the decision since the closing of our window, it may be assumed that has now come through and that's why he's signed.

Maybe in the next few days people will start questioning it and the media will look more closely at the move?

?‍♀️

Well we all know the EFL aren’t exactly watertight with their rules, so it’s certainly possible this is the result of some loophole. Maybe this isn’t even to do with the EFL but perhaps there’s UEFA rulings on out of contract players that mean this loophole exists- the UEFA window that’s used by most in Europe shuts September 2nd, so maybe there’s something in that date crating the loophole that made such a transfer possible. 

Im sure with people discussing it that the situation will be clarified at some stage. I’m still struggling to believe it’s possible, and I think we’ll be told at som point that this transfer was agreed in some way before the end of the window- paperwork for his release may have been filed. What took quite so long however I’m not sure.