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DarkFruitsRam7

Underrated and Overrated Players

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9 minutes ago, Taribo said:

This:

..and this:

....now how to play them together

surely this is one of Cocu's thoughts.

 

Fitting Waghorn and Marriott in the team together as two front men!

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1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Tom Lawrence tries to be skilful and creative but I just think he's a very average player, which the underlying stats back up.

George Thorne was one of the best players I've ever seen in a Derby shirt, but his body just isn't up to it anymore. At least Chris Martin is physically the same, or fitter, than he ever was, whereas Thorne is twice as slow as he used to be. He could still be a decent player if he got his confidence back but I sincerely doubt that now.

I loved watching Tomori play but I think the last ditch tackles, outstanding pace and quick feet made us turn a blind eye to his lack of aerial ability and his inability to defend crosses. He'd be a great project to work on but I don't think it's a terrible thing that he's not coming back, although I'd be very excited if he did come back. If you could combine Tomori's pace and skill on the ball with Davies' aerial ability and knack for defending crosses, you'd have a top, top player. I know every player has flaws in his game, but I think we hyped every single one of our defenders up last season (with the exception of Malone) without our defensive unit being that good.

Hughes was great but I think Derby fans overhyped him. Just like people saying Marriott and Carson should get England call ups, we're pretty deluded as fans (as are fans of all clubs) when it comes to our own players. Blackburn fans were the same when they were suggesting that Southgate was coming to watch Bradley Dack and not Mason Mount.

Maybe the problem is I'm judging your views against my expectations not overall fanbase expectations

I disagree with you on every level on Lawrence - But agree in Thorne and Tomori - However, the vast improvements Tomori made from start of season to end was incredible - And he's going to be a VERY good defender in the future - At the moment he's a very good 21 year old CB at championship level

Hughes is Hughes - A very talented, very hardworking player - I think he's one of those players who other players must love playing with because he puts in the graft as well as having a bit of magic - He's the best player we've seen in a Derby shirt in a long time (except probably Mount) which is why the fans are generally so excited about him

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18 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

People really seem to be missing the point of my original post. Just because I think Butters if underrated and Hughes is overrated does not mean that I think the former is better than the latter. Hughes was and is a fantastic player and I'd take him back in a heartbeat, but, as stated, I think fans thought he was better than he was.

Anya is average, which means he's underrated because many think he's awful. Tomori is very good, which means he's overrated because many think he's the Messiah. Waghorn is very good, which means he's underrated because some think him merely good. Lawrence, for me, is average, which means he's overrated because many think he's very good (although he has got his fair share of detractors).

Get it?

I got it, but the problem is you're labelling a player like Tomori as overrated because some think he's a "messiah", but how many actually rate him as highly as that and how many would like him back because he's a very good defender in your own words?

I'm on board the bring Tomori back bandwagon, but fully aware of his limitations and reliance on pace to get himself out of problems (not all his own fault), I don't have any shrine in my living room dedicated to him but would love to see him back at the club. 

Would you say I overate him or not?

Tom Lawrence another you have said is overrated yet he's one of the most divisive players currently at the club, not sure I would say I have seen one person in my mind overate him, simply defend him over what they see as unfair criticism, which at times I would agree with, similar to Keogh.

So I get where you're coming from, but you have to understand that others won't know which opinions you have used to decide who is overacted/underrated. They will be looking at your listing thinking, so to think Tomori is a very good defender I'm overrating him? Get outta here, I rate everyone fairly and you don't know what you're talking about.

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38 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Bryson (Derby legend but sorry, he really was only a one season wonder)

Yet managed to win Rams POTY twice!

I agree with you regarding Hughes though. One of the best players I've ever seen in a Rams shirt.

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Posted (edited)

Underrated:

Johnson- I was very harsh on him at times- I think he was very poor on occasions but he still found his away into the team a lot even when doubted. I don’t know if the stats reinforce this, but he always looked to get the ball forwards, that I will respect. I never really like players always taking the easy option and playing it back and sideways, Johnson never really did this so i have to give him credit for that. Probably not starter quality anymore but he’d be good as a squad player, he will probably start more at Blackburn.

Forsyth- At times he can be shocking(when the rest of the team plays bad), other times he can be brilliant. I think we are a much better team with him the team than without him, his height is useful when defending set pieces and crosses, something we really struggled defending on last season.

Omar Mascarell- Going a few years back here but he did a really good job filling in for Thorne and Eustace. If he stayed fit, even without Thorne, we would have easily got promoted in that season imo

Overrated:

Bryson- For me, if he was living off the hat trick against forest for many years. He was clearly a good servant but he won’t be a real loss to the team. 

Bogle- His crossing has improved a lot to when he first started but still leaves a lot to be desired and he is a very poor defender, I reckon I’d beat him in a 1 v1. If Wisdom fused with him then we’d be laughing for days though. A lot of people talked about roos’ mistake in the play off final but not enough about bogle’s. Hopefully Cocu improves him as an actual defender.

Lawrence- I’ve seen people call him a skilful player over the last few days. If you consider skill losing the ball all the time and passing the ball in awkward areas to that put your teammates under pressure  then yes, yes he is skillfull. I really sorry for him because the loss of his mum but talking about him as a footballer, I really can’t take to him as a player, he thinks he is better than he is and his stats are very average.

Tomori- Massive fan of the lad but have to agree with you Burton Ram, I think he’s an average defender overall and his pace got him out of trouble a lot. We conceded a lot of goals last season because of his lack of awareness and ball watching. 

 

Edited by McLovin

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3 minutes ago, admira said:

Yet managed to win Rams POTY twice!

I agree with you regarding Hughes though. One of the best players I've ever seen in a Rams shirt.

Tbf one time was when the list of options wasn’t exactly stunning. He was a good player no doubt, but he was only amazing for one year, everyone acts like he always was.

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3 minutes ago, David said:

I got it, but the problem is you're labelling a player like Tomori as overrated because some think he's a "messiah", but how many actually rate him as highly as that and how many would like him back because he's a very good defender in your own words?

I'm on board the bring Tomori back bandwagon, but fully aware of his limitations and reliance on pace to get himself out of problems (not all his own fault), I don't have any shrine in my living room dedicated to him but would love to see him back at the club. 

Would you say I overate him or not?

Tom Lawrence another you have said is overrated yet he's one of the most divisive players currently at the club, not sure I would say I have seen one person in my mind overate him, simply defend him over what they see as unfair criticism, which at times I would agree with, similar to Keogh.

So I get where you're coming from, but you have to understand that others won't know which opinions you have used to decide who is overacted/underrated. They will be looking at your listing thinking, so to think Tomori is a very good defender I'm overrating him? Get outta here, I rate everyone fairly and you don't know what you're talking about.

Perhaps you’re right on Tomori. I just don’t quite get the fact that fans were bemoaning our lack of ability to defend crosses and set pieces, yet Tomori was arguably the biggest culprit. I think he’s so highly rated because he’s an eye-catching defender, which covers up he’s basic faults. He seems to get far more love than Davies, who I believe is currently the better defender by an absolutely mile (different systems and all that, I know).

When I say Lawrence is overrated, I’m aiming it at those who say he’s better than average, which I’d suggest is a fair few people. Some think he’s absolute crap, in which case he’s also underrated.

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5 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

Should’ve added Lampard to my list of overrated too, did a decent job but really wasn’t anything special other than in the playoffs- which is always a lottery.

did worse than Gary

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1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Perhaps you’re right on Tomori. I just don’t quite get the fact that fans were bemoaning our lack of ability to defend crosses and set pieces, yet Tomori was arguably the biggest culprit. I think he’s so highly rated because he’s an eye-catching defender, which covers up he’s basic faults. He seems to get far more love than Davies, who I believe is currently the better defender by an absolutely mile (different systems and all that, I know).

When I say Lawrence is overrated, I’m aiming it at those who say he’s better than average, which I’d suggest is a fair few people. Some think he’s absolute crap, in which case he’s also underrated.

Maybe a better topic would be, Why do fans want Tomori back at the club? drill down into that topic, otherwise you end up with this, grabbing a mish mash of opinions and nobody really knows who you're talking about, could be on the forum, Twitter, mates down the pub or in the concourses.

That way you could reply directly to me and say you David, you are overrating Tomori and I do not agree with you and this is why.

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4 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

@David, I've just had an idea.

Would a thread in The Pub for over/underrated posters be acceptable?😂

I think that's an even worse idea than the one you had this morning opening this. 

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Just now, David said:

I think that's an even worse idea than the one you had this morning opening this. 

Now we know what category he'll be putting you in!

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18 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Perhaps you’re right on Tomori. I just don’t quite get the fact that fans were bemoaning our lack of ability to defend crosses and set pieces, yet Tomori was arguably the biggest culprit. I think he’s so highly rated because he’s an eye-catching defender, which covers up he’s basic faults. He seems to get far more love than Davies, who I believe is currently the better defender by an absolutely mile (different systems and all that, I know).

When I say Lawrence is overrated, I’m aiming it at those who say he’s better than average, which I’d suggest is a fair few people. Some think he’s absolute crap, in which case he’s also underrated.

It'll be interesting to see where his 7 goals and 3 assists in all completions last season, and his 6 goals 7 assists in the league the season before compare with others.

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6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It'll be interesting to see where his 7 goals and 3 assists in all completions last season, and his 6 goals 7 assists in the league the season before compare with others.

Maybe a smidgen above average. His all-round stats are quite poor though, especially when you compare his goal and assists stats to players like Wilson, who gets a load of stick for his lack of all-round contribution.

He was absolutely brilliant in the odd game, e.g. West Brom at home, but more often than not he doesn't really do much.

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5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Maybe a smidgen above average. His all-round stats are quite poor though, especially when you compare his goal and assists stats to players like Wilson, who gets a load of stick for his lack of all-round contribution.

He was absolutely brilliant in the odd game, e.g. West Brom at home, but more often than not he doesn't really do much.

Statistically, I think those two are very similar (ignoring goals scored). The differences being Lawrence is dribbled past less (0.4 vs 1.1), dispossessed more (1.8 vs 0.7) but beats his man more (1.1 vs 0.5) and fouled less (1.1 vs 2.7). So if Lawrence's "all-round stats are quite poor", then Wilson's are just as bad.
I can't find any stat to prove it, but Wilson's marking wasn't great. He often lost him or reacted too slowly, resulting with Bogle being doubled up on. Lawrence was much better at offering the LB protection.

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4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Statistically, I think those two are very similar (ignoring goals scored). The differences being Lawrence is dribbled past less (0.4 vs 1.1), dispossessed more (1.8 vs 0.7) but beats his man more (1.1 vs 0.5) and fouled less (1.1 vs 2.7). So if Lawrence's "all-round stats are quite poor", then Wilson's are just as bad.
I can't find any stat to prove it, but Wilson's marking wasn't great. He often lost him or reacted too slowly, resulting with Bogle being doubled up on. Lawrence was much better at offering the LB protection.

But Wilson scored 18 goals. His overall play might be described as average (slightly above for me) but his goal record and ability to win points for us on his own was outstanding. Making him a very good player. Lawrence's overall play, for me, is average, with a slightly-above average goal output.

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I’ll agree with you on Rowett and I love taking the mick out of the football.

The reality was that it did what it said on the tin and I watched in disbelief sometimes and wondered how the hell did we do that.

To get 2 million off Stoke was still the biggest poohousery ever in football.

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