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Not Addressing Aerial Defensive Frailties


rammieib

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I miss Shaun Barker. Bloke seemed to win every single aerial duel. Honestly think his injury was one of the worst moments for us in the last decade or so. 

If we can find the next SB and stick him next to Keogh, we'll have it on the money. 

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We got better at it under rowett, but we still weren't dominant in that sense.

Club character of Derby County just doesn't seem to be that. We'll be Derby with some flair and vereve on the attack and let Stoke and Boro be very good at defending aerial crosses.

Not to say we can't aim to improve it, of course we can it's one of our worst traits .

 

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The majority of corners are cleared by the player defending the near post area.

We haven't had an effective defender of this area (usually a centre forward) since Chrissy Martin was jettisoned.

Whilst Roos has taken the flack for Burton's first goal on Saturday, the real problem was Waggy missing his header at the near post.

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I'm actually not convinced it's a major deal. 

We conceded more than average from set pieces last year but there were teams above us in the table who conceded more (Norwich and West Brom). And our defence was actually (relative to the rest of the league) was better than our attack; we had the 6th highest goals conceded and the 7th highest goals scored.

To me the bigger issues last year were we didn't consistently create enough or able to apply pressure for long periods, we weren't controlling games very well and at times it was too easy to cut through our midfield. 

I'd much rather Cocu priortise those and implementing his style of play.

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14 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Surely Davies coming back is the answer to this question. 

You would think so,if we got Tomori back you would probably have to play Keogh or Davies depending on the opposition.

I don’t think everyone’s going to come and launch ball forward.

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3 hours ago, Srg said:

Taking the anti-Keogh blinkers off for a minute, Keogh is an exceptional ball playing defender at Championship level. The captain's argument is absolute nonsense as whether you've got a tight bit of fabric around your arm does not change a single thing of how you act when you're on the pitch.

Keogh is not, and never will be, a commanding aerial centre back. He's very good in other aspects of the game, both defensively and when we have the ball. It's no coincidence that despite all those players you've listed, he's been the first name on the team sheet throughout.

What Keogh does need, is a commanding centre half next to him. We were much better with Curtis next to him defensively, but that also meant defending on the edge of our own box to adjust for Rowett's style of football and how absolutely limited Curtis Davies is as a ball player.

It's very much a trade off of playing dire, defensive football and hoping you can win 1-0, or trying to play football the right way, being more exciting and potentially scoring more goals. Finding a ball playing centre back who is aerially dominant is very difficult - Sheffield United managed it and they had the crazy style of football which made it work in the extreme. They're like gold dust at this level.

I, for one, would take the odd defensive frailty at the expense of playing much better football.

The argument for me, is more in the midfield and stopping teams waltz through us like a knife through butter when we lose the ball. The key to this is midfield mobility - for that reason, I can never abide by solely Huddlestone sitting. In our case, we could do with the 6ft athlete to play the role to help aerially, but it can equally be done by a smaller player if they have the engine and reading of the game (extreme example, but think Kante before Sarri inexplicably moved him forward to play carthorse Jorginho there). If Shinnie is this player, it remains to be seen, but I still think we need another option in there.

I agree being captain shouldnt massively affect his personal performance but I massively disagree in that a defence needs a leader to command, organise and having this can make an average defender look good. A lot of teams look to this person to set the defensive line etc and keogh just isn't this, that was my point he should be instructed by the leader of the defence not leading it. 

I'm not sure I buy into this criticism of Davies being an incapable footballer. With the ball at his feet did he go on marauding runs... No but he was more than competent. I'm not sure comparing a defenders footballing ability to keoghs kamikaze runs is the best judge. I don't think Davies has demonstrated in his career an inability to play in footballing sides or has a reputation for holding up/being a liability in free flowing attacking play. 

Sheff utd play with 3 at the back so I'm not sure you can compare their defenders ability to stop crosses to Derby who have played 4. It's a different system with an extra big physical figure in the box. Look at a lot of their back 5 before they played for Sheff utd, most with the exception of Egan were plying their trade below championship standard (alot probably playing 4 at the back). Putting them in a system where their frailties are less exposed and they perform alot better and differently. It does not mean they are all of sudden better defenders in a 4 man defence than those playing it. Possibly like keogh, I don't see him leading a 4 man defence. I could see him doing very well at somewhere like sheff utd or even at Derby with the right partner... But that's an expensive purchase and again limits any hope of bringing through any young academy products at cb. 

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Just now, DontTrustTheDevilInside said:

I agree being captain shouldnt massively affect his personal performance but I massively disagree in that a defence needs a leader to command, organise and having this can make an average defender look good. A lot of teams look to this person to set the defensive line etc and keogh just isn't this, that was my point he should be instructed by the leader of the defence not leading it. 

I'm not sure I buy into this criticism of Davies being an incapable footballer. With the ball at his feet did he go on marauding runs... No but he was more than competent. I'm not sure comparing a defenders footballing ability to keoghs kamikaze runs is the best judge. I don't think Davies has demonstrated in his career an inability to play in footballing sides or has a reputation for holding up/being a liability in free flowing attacking play. 

Sheff utd play with 3 at the back so I'm not sure you can compare their defenders ability to stop crosses to Derby who have played 4. It's a different system with an extra big physical figure in the box. Look at a lot of their back 5 before they played for Sheff utd, most with the exception of Egan were plying their trade below championship standard (alot probably playing 4 at the back). Putting them in a system where their frailties are less exposed and they perform alot better and differently. It does not mean they are all of sudden better defenders in a 4 man defence than those playing it. Possibly like keogh, I don't see him leading a 4 man defence. I could see him doing very well at somewhere like sheff utd or even at Derby with the right partner... But that's an expensive purchase and again limits any hope of bringing through any young academy products at cb. 

Have to disagree about Davies. I'm not talking about running with the ball, but the simple ability to control it quickly and move the ball at pace either into midfield or to your fullback is massively important, and Davies cannot do that at any speed whatsoever. If you want to play pedestrian football and get nowhere with it, then he's fine. Still having nightmares at his performance at Stoke away pre-injury - but that is a mere example of the problem he presents to style of football.

The Sheffield United example was purely that they have 3 defenders, all of a commanding size with the mobility to win headers and get up and down the pitch and pass the ball. Wasn't really a comment on the formation or stopping crosses. Your point about plying their trade below the championship is a good one, it just shows that these players do exists, and I believe we should be trying to find them because signing a 6ft5 defender and expecting all to be gravy is the last thing we should be doing. They need to fit the style on and off the ball.

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2 minutes ago, Srg said:

Have to disagree about Davies. I'm not talking about running with the ball, but the simple ability to control it quickly and move the ball at pace either into midfield or to your fullback is massively important, and Davies cannot do that at any speed whatsoever. If you want to play pedestrian football and get nowhere with it, then he's fine. Still having nightmares at his performance at Stoke away pre-injury - but that is a mere example of the problem he presents to style of football.

The Sheffield United example was purely that they have 3 defenders, all of a commanding size with the mobility to win headers and get up and down the pitch and pass the ball. Wasn't really a comment on the formation or stopping crosses. Your point about plying their trade below the championship is a good one, it just shows that these players do exists, and I believe we should be trying to find them because signing a 6ft5 defender and expecting all to be gravy is the last thing we should be doing. They need to fit the style on and off the ball.

My point wasn't that they were in lower league... More that if you put the Sheff Utd players in Derby's defence they may look pretty frail and poor at stopping crosses... its very easy to stop crosses and pick up men when you have spare men over to deal with it. The point was man to man are they that good defensively or are they protected/inflated by the formation

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4 hours ago, DontTrustTheDevilInside said:

I really don't understand how we can honestly post so frequently criticism of our defence over multiple seasons and exclude Keogh from the criticism (the only part of the defence that's still in place after multiple seasons).

Not saying the other players couldn't be improved/do better but this is how many players have been tried in those 4 other defensive roles in the time we have continued to have faith in Keogh:

Gk: Fielding, Legzdins, Grant, Butland, Roos, Carson,

LB: Malone, Roberts, Hoganson, Fozzy, Naylor, Warnock, Olson, Cole

CB: Tomori, Davies, Bucko, O'Brien, Barker, Whitbread, Keane, Albentosa, Pearce, Shackell

RB: Brayford, O'Connor, Freeman, Smith, Wisdom, Christie, Shotton, Baird, Bogle, Anya

Yes some of those were shockers, but some of them have previously/gone on to have more credible achievements in the championship or higher and/or been signed for significant sums by clubs who rate them as players (yes I know we paid 3 mill for calamity Claude so not a perfect reflection). 

I personally think Keoghs best run in the team has been when he hasn't been captain (alongside Davies and Barker) when he was allowed to shine in what he is good at, 1 on 1s, last ditch tackles and using the ball as a defender. Rather than what he isn't good at which is marking, reading the game or organising a defence. (not saying he is incapable of these things but in my view not his strongest attributes).

I know I am a little biased and not his biggest fan but any Keogh loyalist this season I invite you to focus on Keogh when we score. The amount of times particularly from crosses in the box he is napping for a player of his experience (In my opinion its more forgivable for a Tomori type young player) is unbelievable.

Will you in return note the number of times he blocks shots tackles a player in a scoring position. Do you think the number of managers he has played under are poorer judges of a player then you are????

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15 hours ago, rammieib said:

Another season where as things stand we are going to be serious fragile with aerial balls into us.

Keogh wins a lot, but beyond that we’re a very small team. Bogle would be beaten by a dwarf, Malone is weak, we’ve lost Johnson, and I don’t see much height from anyone else.

The second centre back spot is unknown, Davies will help but he isn’t a ball player, Evans doesn’t fill me with a dominance style etc

I feel it’s too late that this issue will be resolved especially based on the interviews. I’m very worried going into the season that the same defensive lapses will occur again. No fault on Keogh, he just can’t do it all!

Is it not a little early to be making this assumption? Transfer window is still open, who says we're not pursuing new CB's?

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Shackell was immense in the air wasn't he?Measured and announced every pass he ever made though. 

I do hope Forsyth comes back strong because he's great in the air. Actually if he could pass then he'd probably be at a higher level. He just does too many bizarre things with the ball. Still more balanced than Malone though

Davies makes every pass obvious too. You can read them so easily that by the time the receiver gets it there's nowhere to go. He's also pretty slow off the mark. Brilliant if it's a backs to the wall job. 

Roos is hardly commanding the ball either so I think there's a right to be concerned. I'm sure it's been noted though and they're working on solutions. 

Can't really be doing with too much criticism of Keogh. He's consistently picked and people use that as a negative. Makes no sense. To improve the team we drop the guy who every manager picks for the defenders that they don't pick. Like Pearce or Shotton or Whitbread or Shackell or Buxton or Barker or Leacock or Anderson or Davies or Albentosa... see, he's not that bad after weighing the pros and cons of those is he? I mean each manager has seen a weakness in central defence but it's not been Keogh. But because he's selected and we've not been promoted then he's the consistent issue? Just doesn't make sense to me. 

I've witnessed the great Aiden Flint play. The greatest defender that Derby never bought and I was quite underwhelmed. He's a head it and kick it man who likes to announce his passes over the tannoy before making them. 

Keogh is not perfect but he plays because he's the undefeated best ball playing defender we can get our hands on. I'm sure if a better option was available that we'd take it. But clearly no manager we've had can find one. 

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2 hours ago, TommyPowel said:

Will you in return note the number of times he blocks shots tackles a player in a scoring position. Do you think the number of managers he has played under are poorer judges of a player then you are????

I said that... I never said he didn't have strengths what I did say is:

A) he shouldn't be captain or even captain of the defence as the only leadership skills he has is leading by example in his effort levels. His ability to calm the team, read the game and organise team mates is poor. Since he signed we have also had an issue that many managers have complained with dropping deep as soon as the game turns encouraging opponents onto us. 

B) although he is a good defender (if not in areas the best in ths league). He isn't wasn't we need, he's pushing 30 and requires an experienced head to calm and organise next to him. This means with 4 at the back there is no opportunity to bring youngsters through and with his role no-one to put alongside the youngsters to blood them with a calm experienced head. 

I'm not completely biased against him but I am all for progression and the new model and keogh for me doesn't fit. He also doesn't fit the modern game well for me. In the days of all teams playing 442 when cbs just had to mark their respective St he would have been impressive if not the best in the league. In the modern game of mixed formations and fluid attacks he doesn't look comfortable at adapting and picking up changing men. Head to head with 1 player keogh is up with the best.... The modern cb very rarely gets that, full back is a different role where 1 v 1s are still an active judge of a players quality (wan bissakas stand out star why he's valued at 50 Mill by united) 

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I can't remember the home game but at the time I was surprised that after a while the job of picking up their main aerial threat - the big CF - was taken from Keogh and given to Johnson when they took corners and set pieces. 

I can't remember seeing that before.

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52 minutes ago, DontTrustTheDevilInside said:

I said that... I never said he didn't have strengths what I did say is:

A) he shouldn't be captain or even captain of the defence as the only leadership skills he has is leading by example in his effort levels. His ability to calm the team, read the game and organise team mates is poor. Since he signed we have also had an issue that many managers have complained with dropping deep as soon as the game turns encouraging opponents onto us. 

B) although he is a good defender (if not in areas the best in ths league). He isn't wasn't we need, he's pushing 30 and requires an experienced head to calm and organise next to him. This means with 4 at the back there is no opportunity to bring youngsters through and with his role no-one to put alongside the youngsters to blood them with a calm experienced head. 

I'm not completely biased against him but I am all for progression and the new model and keogh for me doesn't fit. He also doesn't fit the modern game well for me. In the days of all teams playing 442 when cbs just had to mark their respective St he would have been impressive if not the best in the league. In the modern game of mixed formations and fluid attacks he doesn't look comfortable at adapting and picking up changing men. Head to head with 1 player keogh is up with the best.... The modern cb very rarely gets that, full back is a different role where 1 v 1s are still an active judge of a players quality (wan bissakas stand out star why he's valued at 50 Mill by united) 

expect to be banned fella

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Re Keogh being affected by the captain'a role: This arose after a couple of seasons where as well as captain, and as well as doing his own job, he had to cover for a deficient centre back partner and a deficient right back. It wasn't so much the captaincy which affected him, it was having to do between one-and-a-half and two jobs, instead of just his own. That is why we say a big improvement when Davies turned up, which coincided with the captaincy being lifted from his shoulders. Incidentally I think the Lampard backroom staff did a lot of work on Keogh last season because I saw a marked improvement in his play, particularly his consistency and dependability.

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Please tell me who you count as a deficient cb and rb partner? Enough to possibly glorify keogh to say he was doing 2 and half jobs...

56 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

Re Keogh being affected by the captain'a role: This arose after a couple of seasons where as well as captain, and as well as doing his own job, he had to cover for a deficient centre back partner and a deficient right back. It wasn't so much the captaincy which affected him, it was having to do between one-and-a-half and two jobs, instead of just his own. That is why we say a big improvement when Davies turned up, which coincided with the captaincy being lifted from his shoulders. Incidentally I think the Lampard backroom staff did a lot of work on Keogh last season because I saw a marked improvement in his play, particularly his consistency and dependability.

Not sure I saw it myself.... He's been consistent his entire career, what he's good at he's good at and what's he's bad at he's bad at. The loyalists ignore the bad and for a while the hate squad ignored the good... I'm not doing either, I'm saying it's time for a change... Particularly with what the club are saying they're doing with bringing academy players through. Need a cb and captain who can lead a young team, not one who is prone to moments... 

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1 hour ago, DCFC Ram said:

expect to be banned fella

Why's that? 

This forum runs the entire spectrum from Keogh out to Keogh is a god, I've never seen anyone banned for expressing an opinion on the matter.

Maybe I've missed it?

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3 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Why's that? 

This forum runs the entire spectrum from Keogh out to Keogh is a god, I've never seen anyone banned for expressing an opinion on the matter.

Maybe I've missed it?

I don't agree that the mods would but would you see them getting banned? Their account doesn't exactly explode onscreen when they are

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