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BagRam

Kieran Dowell - Signed on season long loan & he hates Forest

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8 hours ago, Jourdan said:

A bit underwhelmed by this.

If we are aiming for top 6 and beyond again, Dowell will be a good squad player - someone who can be a rotation option or make an impact coming off the bench.

If he has been earmarked as a key player, then it’s a little worrying because I don’t think he is the answer. He certainly would be a downgrade on the likes of Mount and Wilson.

From the little that I’ve seen, I don’t think he’s a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but is his overall game any better than Holmes, for example?

I just wouldn’t be building the side with Dowell as a key player. We need solid foundations and to think long term.

I just don’t see where he fits in personally. If we play him in midfield, he’s potentially going to create more problems than he solves because he’s lightweight, not very tenacious and seemingly mercurial. And if we play him out wide, it’s at the expense of more explosive players like Jozefzoon, Bennett and Lawrence.

To be honest, the only player that we’ve been linked with so far that excites me is Cavaleiro.

But hey, there’s more to come. I am sure Cocu still has a few aces up his sleeve.

Not sure why we would want to develop Dowell and then send him back without the option to buy but I was fine with the three loans from Chelsea and Liverpool.

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18 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Not really sure where to start with this.

He's an England U21 international who's just had only his second loan spell at a club for half a season. That club was promoted and their fans wanted him back. But you think we should be signing better players if we are aiming for the top 6? 

Mount and Wilson are far too good for this division, Mount definitely is. So we're never gonna replace them with better, higher quality players. But this lad can play. 8 goals in 38 apps for Forest is a good return. Only struggled there when they changed their manager half way through the season.

"I don't see where he fits in" We barely have a midfield at the minute. Surely he'd just gonna fit in where Mount was?  Don't see how signing a midfieder affects Jozefzoon, Bennett or Lawrence. 

Why does he need to be better than Holmes? Can't they play together? Plus I'd imagine he probably is technically better than Holmes anyway.

You're underwhelmed by a player you've "seen little of"? Give him a chance in a Derby shirt.

And referring to Lawrence, Jozefzoon and Bennett as "explosive"? Jesus.

Firstly, what importance can we place on him having under 21 caps? International caps are no indication of how great a player is, especially when Boothroyd is the man in charge.

We’ve already concluded he barely started a game for Sheff Utd and even though their fans liked him, their fans say he would still only be a squad player in a team that will most likely be battling relegation. So again why should we be bouncing off the walls in excitement?

At Forest, we’ve heard that he was good for half a season, or good in fits and starts. 3 of his 9 goals came in one match away at Hull. So what is there to be excited about?

It’s a bit easier to get excited when you have a player like Cavaleiro who was a top performer in his last season at this level and can’t get into a side that finished 7th in the PL and is now playing Europa League football. 

Mount and Wilson came here with much bigger reputations, performed well, but we still only finished 6th. So if they are too good for this division and we still only finished 6th, again why should we be excited by a player of lesser quality?

Just because I am not excited by this signing doesn’t mean I won’t give him a chance. Of course he gets a chance and gets our backing, every player does.

I don’t think he’ll have much of an impact here. Just my gut feeling. Could be and hopefully will be totally wrong. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion.

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54 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Now if we were talking about Shinnie, then yes I would totally agree. But you’ll notice that I haven’t commented on Shinnie anywhere on the forum, because I don’t watch Scottish football at all.

But Dowell is a pretty well known player having played in the Championship for the last two seasons.

If we are saying you can’t comment unless you have seen X amount of games played by a certain player, we might as well as close all of these transfer threads in that case, because no-one will have a clue.

Everyone will have an opinion on a signing, good or bad, informed or otherwise, right or wrong.

Last season I thought Jozefzoon was going to be a revelation. In 2013, I thought Martin was a useless signing.

So what’s to say Dowell won’t come in and smash it with 15 goals and 15 assists?

Of course, I hope he comes in and does a great job for us. But it’s just my gut feeling that it’s not a signing that will bear much fruit.

Yes but you've said you haven't seen Dowell play much and then also go on to say he's a pretty well known player having played in the Championship for the past two seasons.

You don't know his preferred position, how he was played, whether he enjoyed it at those clubs under the managers that was at those clubs. 

I'm guessing that very few Derby supporters have watched him play that many times and those that have, probably wouldn't comment either way until he's put the Derby shirt on a few times. 

It just makes me laugh how people make their mind up by flicking a coin. 

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59 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Now if we were talking about Shinnie, then yes I would totally agree. But you’ll notice that I haven’t commented on Shinnie anywhere on the forum, because I don’t watch Scottish football at all.

But Dowell is a pretty well known player having played in the Championship for the last two seasons.

If we are saying you can’t comment unless you have seen X amount of games played by a certain player, we might as well as close all of these transfer threads in that case, because no-one will have a clue.

Everyone will have an opinion on a signing, good or bad, informed or otherwise, right or wrong.

Last season I thought Jozefzoon was going to be a revelation. In 2013, I thought Martin was a useless signing.

So what’s to say Dowell won’t come in and smash it with 15 goals and 15 assists?

Of course, I hope he comes in and does a great job for us. But it’s just my gut feeling that it’s not a signing that will bear much fruit.

I think you can have an opinion on him. It just isn't well informed. It could turn out to be very true but it's based on seeing him play probably less than 5 times in 2 years? 

 

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2 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I think you can have an opinion on him. It just isn't well informed. It could turn out to be very true but it's based on seeing him play probably less than 5 times in 2 years? 

 

I've just checked on Football Manager and his stats aren't great, I think @Jourdan could be right, we've brought a dud.

Should we throw the dowell in now

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1 minute ago, IlsonDerby said:

I think you can have an opinion on him. It just isn't well informed. It could turn out to be very true but it's based on seeing him play probably less than 5 times in 2 years? 

 

Do any of us have well informed opinions?

So as Derby fans, what makes my opinion less valid than anyone else’s?

Everyone makes snap judgements when a player signs.

But just because I am not over the moon with this signing, I am being singled out?

It remains to be seen just how good or bad Dowell will be. He could be fantastic and I’ll be flying over from Porto at Christmas dancing on the bar and leading the Kieran Dowell chant.

I really hope so.

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4 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

We’ve already concluded he barely started a game for Sheff Utd

Who's concluded this? 

Considering he only signed in the January transfer window, he's had his fair share of starts in a top 2 promotion winning side; something we are not. 

 

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12 hours ago, Boycie said:

He recons we’ll finish behind them.

I said it’s impossible to finish below bottom.

To be fair, Forest have got one of the best squads in the league on paper.

(Do they still claim that now?)

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4 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Who's concluded this? 

Considering he only signed in the January transfer window, he's had his fair share of starts in a top 2 promotion winning side; something we are not. 

 

He signed for Sheffield United on December 28th and presumably was registered to play from January 1st, leaving him 21 games to feature in.

According to Transfermarkt, he started 8 games and made 16 appearances in total.

So barely was a slight exaggeration.

But it still suggests he was a squad player for them. If we have the same ambitions of promotion, why would he be a key player for us?

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2 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

He signed for Sheffield United on December 28th and presumably was registered to play from January 1st, leaving him 21 games to feature in.

According to Transfermarkt, he started 8 games and made 16 appearances in total.

So barely was a slight exaggeration.

But it still suggests he was a squad player for them. If we have the same ambitions of promotion, why would he be a key player for us?

How do you expect us to compete with the 9 other sides who have currently receiving parachute payments, without putting the club at risk of financial instability? 

I think you need to be more realistic of who we are.

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25 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Do any of us have well informed opinions?

So as Derby fans, what makes my opinion less valid than anyone else’s?

Everyone makes snap judgements when a player signs.

But just because I am not over the moon with this signing, I am being singled out?

It remains to be seen just how good or bad Dowell will be. He could be fantastic and I’ll be flying over from Porto at Christmas dancing on the bar and leading the Kieran Dowell chant.

I really hope so.

My opinion is that I'll be sat right on the fence - I can't say he'll be good and I can't say he will be bad. One thing I won't do is judge him before a ball is kicked by looking at stats from his time at other clubs. 

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9 hours ago, Jourdan said:

A bit underwhelmed by this.

If we are aiming for top 6 and beyond again, Dowell will be a good squad player - someone who can be a rotation option or make an impact coming off the bench.

If he has been earmarked as a key player, then it’s a little worrying because I don’t think he is the answer. He certainly would be a downgrade on the likes of Mount and Wilson.

From the little that I’ve seen, I don’t think he’s a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but is his overall game any better than Holmes, for example?

I just wouldn’t be building the side with Dowell as a key player. We need solid foundations and to think long term.

I just don’t see where he fits in personally. If we play him in midfield, he’s potentially going to create more problems than he solves because he’s lightweight, not very tenacious and seemingly mercurial. And if we play him out wide, it’s at the expense of more explosive players like Jozefzoon, Bennett and Lawrence.

To be honest, the only player that we’ve been linked with so far that excites me is Cavaleiro.

But hey, there’s more to come. I am sure Cocu still has a few aces up his sleeve.

a) He probably will be a bit of a downgrade on Mount and Wilson (particularly Mount). But I suspect that we need to lower our expectations. Mount is the anomaly - clearly too good for this division so if he is the yardstick to which we hold all signings, we may be in a permanent state of underwhelm-ment. (That being said, I am as guilty of looking for a like for like of Mount as anyone, I'm sure).

b) From what I've seen of Cocu's teams and what I've studied of them, he liked to play a tenacious player, a box to box player, and a creative player as a three. From what I can take from that, I don't think that Dowell needs to be 'better' than Holmes because he is there to offer something very different. I can easily see Shinnie as the tenacious one, Holmes as the box-to-box and Dowell as the creator. Who knows, I could be totally wrong.

c) Would you describe Mount as 'heavyweight' or 'tenacious'? I know that I certainly wouldn't. But he's not that type of player. Nor is Dowell. So why are we judging him as though he has to be?

d) I don't think for one minute that we're going to play him out wide. It just doesn't add up with everything that Cocu has ever played out wide. He likes fast, tricky players out wide. But.

FWIW, I can see what you mean by being underwhelmed - I am pleased with this signing without being blown away. However, the truth is that we desperately need bodies in midfield. And this is a creative midfield player who can score goals from deep, has played in this division to a decent standard for a couple of years and comes recommended by someone Cocu trusts. And by the sounds of it, I don't see it costing us an exorbitant fee. So what is really to complain about? I actually think we could yet see another creative midfielder arrive potentially.

 

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8 minutes ago, CHCDerby said:

My opinion is that I'll be sat right on the fence - I can't say he'll be good and I can't say he will be bad. One thing I won't do is judge him before a ball is kicked by looking at stats from his time at other clubs. 

If we all did that, what would be the point in such a forum?

We might as well tape our mouths shut until August 31st.

Yet there’ll be posts upon posts of pre-season predictions on teams and players on what evidence? Stats, video clips, the occasional night down the pub watching Sky...

It’s the second week of July and MACKWORTHRAM is in another thread declaring Fulham will be a force on the evidence of one potential signing and Mitrovic’s contract extension. No-one is saying that he is ill-informed or should sit on the fence.

Again it’s only because I am not saying ‘What a signing! What a gem! What a stud!’ that I am being singled out. If I was singing the lad’s praises, no-one would have batted an eyelid.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, TibshelfRam said:

a) He probably will be a bit of a downgrade on Mount and Wilson (particularly Mount). But I suspect that we need to lower our expectations. Mount is the anomaly - clearly too good for this division so if he is the yardstick to which we hold all signings, we may be in a permanent state of underwhelm-ment. (That being said, I am as guilty of looking for a like for like of Mount as anyone, I'm sure).

b) From what I've seen of Cocu's teams and what I've studied of them, he liked to play a tenacious player, a box to box player, and a creative player as a three. From what I can take from that, I don't think that Dowell needs to be 'better' than Holmes because he is there to offer something very different. I can easily see Shinnie as the tenacious one, Holmes as the box-to-box and Dowell as the creator. Who knows, I could be totally wrong.

c) Would you describe Mount as 'heavyweight' or 'tenacious'? I know that I certainly wouldn't. But he's not that type of player. Nor is Dowell. So why are we judging him as though he has to be?

d) I don't think for one minute that we're going to play him out wide. It just doesn't add up with everything that Cocu has ever played out wide. He likes fast, tricky players out wide. But.

FWIW, I can see what you mean by being underwhelmed - I am pleased with this signing without being blown away. However, the truth is that we desperately need bodies in midfield. And this is a creative midfield player who can score goals from deep, has played in this division to a decent standard for a couple of years and comes recommended by someone Cocu trusts. And by the sounds of it, I don't see it costing us an exorbitant fee. So what is really to complain about? I actually think we could yet see another creative midfielder arrive potentially.

 

I think if he is coming in as a squad player, then it’s a good addition. If he is coming in to be a key player, then I have my reservations.

I am not complaining, just expressing a concern that Dowell might not be what we need. 

In truth, I hope that I can post after the first game, ‘Huddersfield 0-2 Derby. Dowell ran the show. Cocu is a genius.’

You are right in saying that not every signing will set pulses racing and not every signing has to be a blockbuster.

I am delighted that Cocu is here and I think we are in line for a great season (but maybe I should sit on the fence with that one?)

Is it so bad to be unimpressed by one signing?

Edited by Jourdan

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1 minute ago, Jourdan said:

I think if he is coming in as a squad player, then it’s a good addition. If he is coming in to be a key player, then I have my reservations.

I am not complaining, just expressing a concern that Dowell might not be what we need. 

In truth, I hope that I can post after the first game, ‘Huddersfield 0-2 Derby. Dowell ran the show. Cocu is a genius.’

You are right in saying that not every signing will set pulses racing and not every signing has to be a blockbuster.

I am delighted that Cocu is here and I think we are in line for a great season (but maybe I should sit on the fence with that one?)

Is it so bad to be unimpressed by one signing?

Well that makes this whole god damn forum boring until the 31st August  😎

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