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ronnieronalde

big clubs and their sneaky buying of young talent.

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Very interesting read this. 

The story of George Hirst (son of David) and how he ended up in Belgium for peanuts.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/aug/12/george-hirst-sheffield-wednesday-leuven-leicester?CMP=share_btn_tw

The only good thing in that story is that it can also happen to Man Utd. The thought of Levy getting one over on Man Utd does make me chuckle, even though it shouldn't.

I think the rules brought in for compensation around young players could finally be the the nail in the coffin for lower league clubs.

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I don't like this practice but I can't have sympathy for a club that freezes someone out when they refuse to sign a new contract.

 

They also received a very good offer for him which they turned down

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Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between the rules that actively help the big money clubs get more control over the game and the well intended rules the big money clubs have the influence to pervert into mechanisms for extending their influence and control over the game.

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Any new rules have to be agreed by the Premier League clubs so its a foregone conclusion that they will benefit the big boys.

There is no way that they will allow a rule that would benefit clubs further down the pyramid. Its just not gonna happen.

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12 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Any new rules have to be agreed by the Premier League clubs so its a foregone conclusion that they will benefit the big boys.

There is no way that they will allow a rule that would benefit clubs further down the pyramid. Its just not gonna happen.

Sad but true.

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On 05/07/2019 at 17:17, Jimmy Skitz said:

I don't like this practice but I can't have sympathy for a club that freezes someone out when they refuse to sign a new contract.

 

They also received a very good offer for him which they turned down

Surely that's just like letting someone in the real world leave as soon as they've handed their notice in?

How many times have you or someone you know quit a job with 2 weeks or 4 weeks notice period but they've sent you home straight after the meeting? I've seen people in corporate put on 12 months gardening leave.

Of course they're entitled to freeze him out if he's not staying.

They were probably keeping their fingers crossed he'd go to a British club and the development fee involved would be higher. It's clearly bit them on their ass but I'd also ask, why is it cheaper for a club outside of the UK to poach a young talent than it would be for an English club to do the same?

 

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15 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Surely that's just like letting someone in the real world leave as soon as they've handed their notice in?

How many times have you or someone you know quit a job with 2 weeks or 4 weeks notice period but they've sent you home straight after the meeting? I've seen people in corporate put on 12 months gardening leave.

Of course they're entitled to freeze him out if he's not staying.

They were probably keeping their fingers crossed he'd go to a British club and the development fee involved would be higher. It's clearly bit them on their ass but I'd also ask, why is it cheaper for a club outside of the UK to poach a young talent than it would be for an English club to do the same?

 

I would guess it's because leagues are allowed to make their own rules up on such matters. When you want UEFA to interfere they don't, probably because they know it won't be popular with the large clubs.

And we can be sanguine about it until Sibley ends up at Man City for peanuts via Girona, or at Arsenal via somewhere else.

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22 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Surely that's just like letting someone in the real world leave as soon as they've handed their notice in?

How many times have you or someone you know quit a job with 2 weeks or 4 weeks notice period but they've sent you home straight after the meeting? I've seen people in corporate put on 12 months gardening leave.

Of course they're entitled to freeze him out if he's not staying.

They were probably keeping their fingers crossed he'd go to a British club and the development fee involved would be higher. It's clearly bit them on their ass but I'd also ask, why is it cheaper for a club outside of the UK to poach a young talent than it would be for an English club to do the same?

 

but he didn't hand in his notice, he was fulfilling his contract and told because he refused to extend it, he would no longer be allowed to do his job.

 

In other industries when placed on gardening leave would the company you are leaving be entitled to compensation at the expiration of your contract from your new employer?

The player and his family/agent then came up with a way to screw over the man they had a problem with, they would have gotten more had they accepted our offer then they would have received in a development fee, their chairman acted like an idiot and got schooled as a result

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Jimmy Skitz said:

but he didn't hand in his notice, he was fulfilling his contract and told because he refused to extend it, he would no longer be allowed to do his job.

 

In other industries when placed on gardening leave would the company you are leaving be entitled to compensation at the expiration of your contract from your new employer?

The player and his family/agent then came up with a way to screw over the man they had a problem with, they would have gotten more had they accepted our offer then they would have received in a development fee, their chairman acted like an idiot and got schooled as a result

I don't know too many industries where you're given a fixed term contract and then get paid whether you perform or not. (I'm aware GH WAS performing and very well but what I mean there is he wasn't going to play)

I can only say when I've said to my bosses I'm leaving but I'll serve my notice, they've always acted like morons, usually took the company phone and cut off email, even when I'm usually at the sharper end of negotiating some fairly sizeable deals on THEIR BEHALF. 

"Can I at least call the clients who are expecting a call today and let them know someone else will be in touch?"

No, get out now.

My last boss threatened to call the Police to have me removed, 'cos I said I wouldn't leave without a piece of paper confirming they'd pay my notice period and any bonus they owed me 😉

I've got absolutely no issues with George Hirst here, I'm always more on the side of the player than the club and good luck to the lad. Seriously, he should squeeze every penny he can out of his career, which by all accounts is going to be a great one.

I hope he does brilliantly.

My beef isn't with the boy, it's with the loopholes.

 

***** little edit to say by the way. I thought his Dad was an incredible player and loved watching him play, one of the best strikers in the English game on his day - I really wish Brian had done more to try to get him to sign for him when he had a slight chance of Hirsty being available..... Ijust in case you're connected to the family 😉********

Edited by ronnieronalde
to suck up a little bit ;-)

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The twist to the story is that at the time Wednesday fans were saying he would just go to  Belgium for a year and the join Leicester and we would avoid paying conversation.

Well last week.......

No one comes out of this looking great. The Hirst's making demands, Wednesday playing hard ball and freezing him out, Leicester getting round the compensation pay out. 

 

 

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Can't really complain about this.  They're exploiting a loophole, just like we have with the stadium.  If anything Windies should've accepted Leicester's bid.  Same position as we were in with Luke Thomas.  If a prem club came in for Sibley at the end of this season and offered £2m, unless Cocu was adamant he was gonna be starting for the first team, we'd sell him...

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4 hours ago, ramsbottom said:

Can't really complain about this.  They're exploiting a loophole, just like we have with the stadium.  If anything Windies should've accepted Leicester's bid.  Same position as we were in with Luke Thomas.  If a prem club came in for Sibley at the end of this season and offered £2m, unless Cocu was adamant he was gonna be starting for the first team, we'd sell him...

Really?

Chelsea came in and bid £2m for one of our players in January who was playing in League 2. At that point he hadn't made so much as a sub appearance for us and we picked him up from a local college.

He was recalled from his loan and made (if I'm not mistaken) 4 appearances before the end of the season (the last as the sub who got sent off against Derby).

Now he was sent out in the second of 3 teams that played in out community game on Saturday, alongside out normal first choice striker (the teams were largely starting 11, squad players and then academy lads, with a couple of exceptions per side). That could indicate he will be involved in the main squad this coming season, but I highly doubt he'll be a regular starter for the first team.

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19 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Really?

Chelsea came in and bid £2m for one of our players in January who was playing in League 2. At that point he hadn't made so much as a sub appearance for us and we picked him up from a local college.

He was recalled from his loan and made (if I'm not mistaken) 4 appearances before the end of the season (the last as the sub who got sent off against Derby).

Now he was sent out in the second of 3 teams that played in out community game on Saturday, alongside out normal first choice striker (the teams were largely starting 11, squad players and then academy lads, with a couple of exceptions per side). That could indicate he will be involved in the main squad this coming season, but I highly doubt he'll be a regular starter for the first team.

Yes.  We've just agreed to sell Liam Delap to Man Cit-eh for £1.2 million.  Another few years he may well have made the step up, but that kinda money for a 17 year old can't be sniffed at.  One of our chairman's aims is to have the academy make money from youth sales.  So far it's made just under £3m before a balls been kicked in anger this season.  Good business in my mind...

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14 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

Yes.  We've just agreed to sell Liam Delap to Man Cit-eh for £1.2 million.  Another few years he may well have made the step up, but that kinda money for a 17 year old can't be sniffed at.  One of our chairman's aims is to have the academy make money from youth sales.  So far it's made just under £3m before a balls been kicked in anger this season.  Good business in my mind...

We didn't agree to sell Delap. We had no choice in the matter. I'm not sure how the fee was calculated, but he went for £1.6m (I believe). I think Thomas went for £1.2m and we had a say in that as he'd signed professional terms. 

WBA are getting done from every angle at the minute, ones gone to Barcelona and another to Man City. We've then gone and taken their coach. 

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It's also worth noting that these 'loopholes' are the reason we have Bogle & Mitchell-Lawson. We need to appreciate it's dog-eat-dog and Wednesday, I'm sure, have used their status to pillage smaller clubs in the past.  

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1 hour ago, ramsbottom said:

Yes.  We've just agreed to sell Liam Delap to Man Cit-eh for £1.2 million.  Another few years he may well have made the step up, but that kinda money for a 17 year old can't be sniffed at.  One of our chairman's aims is to have the academy make money from youth sales.  So far it's made just under £3m before a balls been kicked in anger this season.  Good business in my mind...

Wass and Pat Lyons really have been superb for the Rams. (is Pat still around?)

When you think of the fees for Hughesy and Jeff they've probably generated more money through the Academy than through the general selling of players. Am I right in thinking that apart from Vydra, those two are still the biggest fees received or am I having a moment and I've forgotten somebody major?

A very, very good and sensible decision to "ring fence" the Academy those few years ago.

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1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

Wass and Pat Lyons really have been superb for the Rams. (is Pat still around?)

He is. Wassall’s #2 

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

When you think of the fees for Hughesy and Jeff they've probably generated more money through the Academy than through the general selling of players. Am I right in thinking that apart from Vydra, those two are still the biggest fees received or am I having a moment and I've forgotten somebody major?

Ince

1 hour ago, ronnieronalde said:

A very, very good and sensible decision to "ring fence" the Academy those few years ago.

 

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On 10/07/2019 at 12:01, ramsbottom said:

Yes.  We've just agreed to sell Liam Delap to Man Cit-eh for £1.2 million.  Another few years he may well have made the step up, but that kinda money for a 17 year old can't be sniffed at.  One of our chairman's aims is to have the academy make money from youth sales.  So far it's made just under £3m before a balls been kicked in anger this season.  Good business in my mind...

Presumably there's a hefty sell on fee there?

Our club's going about a develop/buy young players and sell them strategy too, we just make sure the money is right.

£15m rising to £21m for a LB who is actually a CB and played less than a full season for us as an example.

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