Youth Opportunities

[Ghost of Clough]

The general consensus seems to be that Frank has given our academy players* plenty of opportunities in the first team. But how many actually played under him last season? 

5 - Bogle, Bennett, Bird, Lowe, Mitchell-Lawson

Rowett actually used more academy players (6) in the 17/18 season!

The difference however is the number of youth players used on the bench. MacDonald, Ravas, Knight, Buchanan, Tyree Wilson. Taking the total youths in Frank’s squads to 10 and equalling our highest from recent seasons. In Rowett’s full season, the only additional academy player was Bogle (1 game on bench). 

 

Recent seasons

17/18 - Hanson, Bennett, Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bird [Bogle on bench]

16/17 - Hughes, Lowe, Hanson, Hendrick, Bennett, Elsnik, Vernam. [Rawson, Guy, MacDonald on bench]

15/16 - Hendrick, Hanson, Hughes [Bennett, Elsnik, Guy on bench]

14/15 - Hughes, Hendrick, Kwame Thomas, Hanson, Bennett [Rawson on bench]

13/14 - Hughes, Hendrick, Bennett [O’Brien, Morch, Ball, Lowe, Kwame Thomas, Hanson on bench]

 

Although Frank hasn’t used many more youths than in recent seasons, the last time we ‘used’ more than 10, was way back in the 05/06 season with a total of 12. Of which, 9 played actually played in a game.

 

The noises from from the club suggest our squad will be made up of more youths next season, although I don’t expect many other than Bogle, Lowe, Bird and Bennett to get regular game time.

 

 

*Academy players = played for Derby U18s or below, excluding Huddlestone and Grant

[GenBr]

How many games did Hanson, Bennett, Elsnik, Guy, Gordon and Bird have combined for Rowett though? Elsnik, Guy, Gordon and Bird never even made a league appearance under Rowett did they? Hanson and Bennett had virtually no play time. Under Lampard Bogle alone had more than them put together.

[Ghost of Clough]

9 minutes ago, GenBr said:

How many games did Hanson, Bennett, Elsnik, Guy, Gordon and Bird have combined for Rowett though? Elsnik, Guy, Gordon and Bird never even made a league appearance under Rowett did they? Hanson and Bennett had virtually no play time. Under Lampard Bogle alone had more than them put together.

Hanson - 8 (1 cup)

Bennett - 6 (3 cup)

Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bird - 1 each (cup)

[GenBr]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Hanson - 8 (1 cup)

Bennett - 6 (3 cup)

Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bird - 1 (cup)

I don't really think we can count Elsnik, Guy, Gordon and Bird as being given opportunities if they only have 1 cup appearance between them.

[Alph]

I think it's more the direction he's heading in. He loaned 3 young players and along with Bogle and Bennett our team looked younger and fresher than Huddlestone, Jerome, Davies, Ledley and Nugent. 

 

[Millenniumram]

It’s about how much game time is given to the young players rather than how many you actually involve. You can have plenty of youngsters somewhere involved in the first team squad like Rowett did, but when they’re only cover it really doesn’t mean anything. It’s not really “giving youth a chance” when they’re just getting the odd game here and there off the bench like they did under Rowett, that won’t do much for their development. What Lampard did was actually give academy graduates an active proper role in the team, like bogle became first choice right back, Bennett competition for places up front etc.

Thats what really matters in giving youth a chance. Couldn’t really care less how many are involved in some way, it’s about to what extent the players given a chance become involved in the first team for me. That’s what I look for. And I would imagine that’s what Mel means when he wants youth involved. He doesn’t nessercerily mean he wants huge numbers of them involved in minor roles like we’ve had before (it’s risky relying on too many youngsters anyway), and that doesn’t always amount to really benefitting their development like we saw with Rowett. What he means I suspect is we want a few youngsters taking active roles in the first team, be that first choice, competition for places, off the bench etc, rather than signing new players for those roles. That’ll be the task continuing on from Lampard for the next manager.

[angieram]

It was good to see players right down to under 18s involved in training sessions. That happened because some of the senior players were loaned or frozen out - and Lampard stuck to it even when injuries bit. 

I think we'd have seen a few more cup appearances for youngsters if we hadn't kept drawing Prem teams, forcing Frank to play the first team as he wanted to win!

It will be interesting to see who we put out there against Scunthorpe away. Whoever is Manager.

[RamNut]

There aren't that many players coming through who are genuine contenders for a first team place.

bogle is established.

Bennett is probably competing with marriott and waghorn.

There could be an opportunity in central midfield as we are weak in that area but thats more a reflection of our current weakness than the availability of an outstanding prospect. And we might yet make another signing in that area.

Max Lowe seems to have enhanced his reputation in scotland and will get opportunities due to the injury to fozzy, but i'll be surprised if he can establish himself. When i watched a full game for Aberdeen he didn't look to have improved at all unfortunately.

mitchell-lawson looked pacy and a possible option as a sub but not a starter.

the next two players who seemed ready to break through have now both gone - thomas and elsnik.

The other areas where we have a real need for reinforcements are in central defence and left wing, but there is nothing coming through in those positions is there?

 

[nottingram]

Surely Callum Ball wasn’t still playing for us in 13/14?!

[Curtains]

Has anybody any idea why we sold Thomas 

[RamLad1884]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

Has anybody any idea why we sold Thomas 

£1.2 million for a player who hasn't scored alot despite making alot of appearances in league one. 

General consensus is that he was a good player but no real end product, more often than not they end up falling away in the lower leagues. 

That kind of money covers the cost of two cheaper signings (Holmes type player etc) and there's no guareentee that Thomas will ever develop further. 

I'd imagine he's got a sell on clause too, just in case he becomes decent for Barnsley 

[jimbo jones]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

There could be an opportunity in central midfield as we are weak in that area but thats more a reflection of our current weakness than the availability of an outstanding prospect. And we might yet make another signing in that area.

 

In my opinion, Louie Sibley is the biggest prospect in the academy. Is he ready yet? We won’t know until he’s given the opportunity.

[Carnero]

4 minutes ago, jimbo jones said:

In my opinion, Louie Sibley is the biggest prospect in the academy. Is he ready yet? We won’t know until he’s given the opportunity.

Sibley and Bird are the clear standouts as most "first team ready" from the 18s/23s. Sibley in particular is some talent, the quicker he's in the first team the better for me.

[Curtains]

23 minutes ago, RamLad1884 said:

£1.2 million for a player who hasn't scored alot despite making alot of appearances in league one. 

General consensus is that he was a good player but no real end product, more often than not they end up falling away in the lower leagues. 

That kind of money covers the cost of two cheaper signings (Holmes type player etc) and there's no guareentee that Thomas will ever develop further. 

I'd imagine he's got a sell on clause too, just in case he becomes decent for Barnsley 

I think it’s a rubbish decision to be honest. 

I think Luke has a future 

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, jimbo jones said:

In my opinion, Louie Sibley is the biggest prospect in the academy. Is he ready yet? We won’t know until he’s given the opportunity.

I agree but he's only 17/18 . Hasn't had a start yet and shouldn't be rushed like lee holmes was.

[PastRAMi]

I would imagine that minutes played was a hell of a lot higher this season.  Some of those apps might of been the last minute of a match. 

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, RamNut said:

There aren't that many players coming through who are genuine contenders for a first team place.

You generally see youth players step in as squad players before making the step up to being a first team regular. Bogle being an exception. 

Quote

There could be an opportunity in central midfield as we are weak in that area but thats more a reflection of our current weakness than the availability of an outstanding prospect. And we might yet make another signing in that area.

 

1 hour ago, jimbo jones said:

In my opinion, Louie Sibley is the biggest prospect in the academy. Is he ready yet? We won’t know until he’s given the opportunity.

 

1 hour ago, Carnero said:

Sibley and Bird are the clear standouts as most "first team ready" from the 18s/23s. Sibley in particular is some talent, the quicker he's in the first team the better for me.

In my opinion, the three players with the highest potential (from the entire academy U18s up) are all CMs - Bird, Knight and Sibley. I hope we make a maximum of 1 new signing in this area otherwise we could be blocking their development. Bird already has a lot of competition for a DM spot (Huddlestone, Johnson, Shinnie, Evans).

 

35 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I agree but he's only 17/18 . Hasn't had a start yet and shouldn't be rushed like lee holmes was.

17 and arguably the most talented player at U23 level last season.

 

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Max Lowe seems to have enhanced his reputation in scotland and will get opportunities due to the injury to fozzy, but i'll be surprised if he can establish himself. When i watched a full game for Aberdeen he didn't look to have improved at all unfortunately.

mitchell-lawson looked pacy and a possible option as a sub but not a starter.

the next two players who seemed ready to break through have now both gone - thomas and elsnik.

Closest but not judged to have the highest potential. I believe Elsnik wanted to leave to get regular first team football and not move between clubs on loan. 

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The other areas where we have a real need for reinforcements are in central defence and left wing, but there is nothing coming through in those positions is there?

Buchanan, Hunt and Minkley have all impressed me and show different attributes. Buchanan brings the ball out of defence very well and could be excused for being a winger at times. Hunt’s distribution is as good as Tomori’s. Minkley is the good at reading play and battling in the air. Wassall and Bateman need spells out on loan to progress with their careers - league 1/2 is where they will probably end up in a few years. Cashin is another but I haven’t seen enough of him to judge.

We have a number of players capable of playing on the wing coming through. Wilson has the fastest feet I’ve seen at youth level but his decision making is somewhat lacking - I don’t expect to see him feature in the first team much this season. Whittaker has played on the wings quite often (rarely on the left, sometimes on the right, but most often down the middle). Hasn’t got the pace to beat a man that Wilson has (not many do), but his first thought is always “where’s the goal” and chances are he’ll either score or won’t be far off. The closest to the first team is McAllister. A better dribbler than Thomas and a more complete footballer too. However he hasn’t shown good enough end product often enough yet. Injuries have held him back which is why I judge him to be 1 year behind Thomas in his development. You’ve also mentioned JML who needs to show more consistency with his end product. 

 

FYI, don’t expect a new signing at LB. Either Lowe or MacDonald will be backup to (or competing with) Malone next season.

[JfR]

Breaking it down to minutes played shows the difference though (total minutes first; league minutes, including playoffs, in brackets):

18/19
Jayden Bogle: 4386 (3755)
Mason Bennett: 1455 (1256)
Max Lowe: 379 (270)
Max Bird: 187 (110)
Jayden Mitchell-Lawson: 7 (7)
Total: 6414 (5398)

17/18
Mason Bennett: 206 (41)
Jamie Hanson: 63 (51)
Max Bird: 81 (0)
Kellan Gordon: 15 (0)
Callum Guy: 9 (0)
Timi Elsnik: 9 (0)
Luke Thomas: 6 (6)
Total: 316 (98)

So this season academy players played 20x as many total minutes as last season, and 55x as many minutes in the league than last season. I personally think it's far more beneficial to follow this path of giving substantial game time to a smaller number of players than token appearances to a larger number of players.

[Stuniverse]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

I agree but he's only 17/18 . Hasn't had a start yet and shouldn't be rushed like lee holmes was.

Wasn’t a problem for Will Hughes. As the saying goes: if you’re good enough, you’re old enough.

[angieram]

I think that if anyone can look after himself, it's Louie Sibley. It's those playing against him I fear for! ?

I did wonder whether he got no first team action because he spent most of last season doubling up for both the under 18s and under 23s?