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cosmic

Football Manager has problems with racism

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Has anyone heard about this? An analysis of Football Manager’s database found that players and staff with darker skin tend to have worse ratings on mental attributes.

In know it's a game, but bear in mind this database is built on the input and opinions of hundreds of professional scouts across the globe. This database gets used in the EPL. I don't think anyone is labelling anyone as racist, but it certainly highlights a natural prejudice in the game.

Worth a read before taking offence:

https://qz.com/1636057/football-manager-2019-has-a-racism-problem/

 

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Edited by cosmic

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I bet if it was done on athleticism that darker skinned players would be stronger.

Eranio got sacked for saying something about white players being more intelligent on the pitch. 

Is it racist? Dunno. But go to athletics. Are the black people more dominant? Are they faster and stronger in general. Obviously there are exceptions but in football it does seem the black players looked to provide physical ability. 

I dunno. Maybe I'm making a racist stereotype. It's just an observation. Looking at the England team or the Derby team..do our black players tend to be given athletic roles where areas centrally go to white players with what we'd say are areas of decision making? 

It's hard to discuss because there's loads of knob heads ready to to get angry. 

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Ask anyone at Southampton's youth scouting and coaching set up how they develop players based on "racial profiling"

Worst kept "secret" in football and as someone who has previously been involved at that level one I find astonishing that its almost celebrated by them.

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49 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I bet if it was done on athleticism that darker skinned players would be stronger.

Eranio got sacked for saying something about white players being more intelligent on the pitch. 

Is it racist? Dunno. But go to athletics. Are the black people more dominant? Are they faster and stronger in general. Obviously there are exceptions but in football it does seem the black players looked to provide physical ability. 

I dunno. Maybe I'm making a racist stereotype. It's just an observation. Looking at the England team or the Derby team..do our black players tend to be given athletic roles where areas centrally go to white players with what we'd say are areas of decision making? 

It's hard to discuss because there's loads of knob heads ready to to get angry. 

I think you're right that a lot of the athletics will be skewed the other way in some cases. But I don't think that's much of a stereotype, there is a difference to the physical builds of members of different ethnicities.

I suspect this situation is more design logic than passive racism, but there's undoubtedly the potential for it to be a combination of the two. I'll try to explain.

I don't think there's any intent behind it, but I'd wager that as you leave Europe, Football Manager knows less about the players/leagues and simply put its outside of Europe that the vast majority of non-white players play.
From a game design perspective, if I didn't know all that much about players, I'd hedge lower rather than higher so I didn't get a larger number of superior players growing from obscure teams (teams who will be programmed with different perspectives in terms of budgets and how much they value players etc.), than the players growing from European/Well known teams. 

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1 hour ago, KBB said:

Ask anyone at Southampton's youth scouting and coaching set up how they develop players based on "racial profiling"

Worst kept "secret" in football and as someone who has previously been involved at that level one I find astonishing that its almost celebrated by them.

But does it work? 

Are we all equal in everything? 

Is it racist to say black players are athletic and white players are clever? Or could there be evidence to support it. 

Find it quite interesting tbh

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10 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Some people have got far too much time on their hands.

Getting a bit desperate when you start analysing computer games.

 

Football Manager database is a professionally used resource within the football industry.

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30 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Football Manager database is a professionally used resource within the football industry.

It's only used to see if someone is worth looking at looking at, isn't it? 

Like looking through a shop window to see if its it's even worth going inside

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43 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Some people have got far too much time on their hands.

Getting a bit desperate when you start analysing computer games.

 

I find it interesting just because it goes back to what Eranio said. 

I mean he was a bit more brutal and probably should have said nothing. But there is kind of a thing where ethnic groups tend to be stronger in some areas than others. 

The right thing to say is "We're all equal" 

Yet there does seem to be trends. 

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23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I find it interesting just because it goes back to what Eranio said. 

I mean he was a bit more brutal and probably should have said nothing. But there is kind of a thing where ethnic groups tend to be stronger in some areas than others. 

The right thing to say is "We're all equal" 

Yet there does seem to be trends. 

When it comes to mental aptitude, those trends tend to be down to the state of the countries of origin  though. The impoverished are far less likely to be learned, for example.

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31 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

When it comes to mental aptitude, those trends tend to be down to the state of the countries of origin  though. The impoverished are far less likely to be learned, for example.

Which I think is where Eranio saying something about African players not being smart has it's basis. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Which I think is where Eranio saying something about African players not being smart has it's basis. 

 

Maybe, but the implication of the way he talked about was that he thought it was true of those raised/educated in Europe as well.

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Just now, SaintRam said:

Maybe, but the implication of the way he talked about was that he thought it was true of those raised/educated in Europe as well.

Yeah, I mean I suppose there's a chain of thought based on what we see in sport that black people have better potential athleticism. 

You think, big, strong, powerful and pacey and is it often black players providing that to their teams. Even within Europe. 

The thinkers, the engine room for our teams perhaps not so much. 

I dunno, I'm trying to not really give a strong opinion because I don't know the details because it's not something that I'd ever look into. Just trying to understand the pattern without shouting "racists!" like so many precious souls would do. 

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On 28/06/2019 at 16:02, Alpha said:

I bet if it was done on athleticism that darker skinned players would be stronger.

Eranio got sacked for saying something about white players being more intelligent on the pitch. 

Is it racist? Dunno. But go to athletics. Are the black people more dominant? Are they faster and stronger in general. Obviously there are exceptions but in football it does seem the black players looked to provide physical ability. 

I dunno. Maybe I'm making a racist stereotype. It's just an observation. Looking at the England team or the Derby team..do our black players tend to be given athletic roles where areas centrally go to white players with what we'd say are areas of decision making? 

It's hard to discuss because there's loads of knob heads ready to to get angry. 

 

On 28/06/2019 at 17:25, Alpha said:

But does it work? 

Are we all equal in everything? 

Is it racist to say black players are athletic and white players are clever? Or could there be evidence to support it. 

Find it quite interesting tbh

 

On 28/06/2019 at 18:29, Alpha said:

I find it interesting just because it goes back to what Eranio said. 

I mean he was a bit more brutal and probably should have said nothing. But there is kind of a thing where ethnic groups tend to be stronger in some areas than others. 

The right thing to say is "We're all equal" 

Yet there does seem to be trends. 

As I stated above, there’s potentially a really interesting discussion to be had on this issue, but you’d have to tread exceptionally carefully. 

I also find conversation on the skill gap between men and women’s football interesting but, again, you have to be careful. Although I think the issues in that case are more based on socio-political factors than biological.  

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Interesting.

On Sportsmanship which is quite  an abstract concept anyway...

Most of our (English/ SI Games employees) sense of Sportsmanship is founded on the Corinthian spirit fostered through the amateur/Victorian era which stems from the Protestant Work Ethic. One of the differences this study perhaps highlights is between those from cultures in countries built on, for example, Catholic beliefs - South America, Southern Europe, their colonies (I.E darker skinned populations) and those based on this notion of "good Ol' English fair play".

 This can be highlighted in the role of the referee for example. In England and to a lesser extent the Germanic/Scandinavian countries, the referee is the absolute upholder of the law - he plays God, players await his judgement and accept it, he is the ultimate arbiter, he provides the Truth and is for all intents and purposes not intrinsically part of the game. In France, Spain, Italy and South America, the referees role is more similar to that of a jester. He is absolutely inside the game, he is a part of it and is open to influence and trickery just as a defender would be in the face of an attacker. Hence someone raised on the "English" version of sportsmanship/etiquette would perhaps see the minor indiscretions such as diving/shirt pulling etc - general deception of the referee - and generally accepted as being more prevalent amongst players of those nations - more readily and thus using those as markers with which to mark players from those nations with darker skin down in the Sportsmanship stats.

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3 hours ago, JoetheRam said:

Interesting.

On Sportsmanship which is quite  an abstract concept anyway...

Most of our (English/ SI Games employees) sense of Sportsmanship is founded on the Corinthian spirit fostered through the amateur/Victorian era which stems from the Protestant Work Ethic. One of the differences this study perhaps highlights is between those from cultures in countries built on, for example, Catholic beliefs - South America, Southern Europe, their colonies (I.E darker skinned populations) and those based on this notion of "good Ol' English fair play".

 This can be highlighted in the role of the referee for example. In England and to a lesser extent the Germanic/Scandinavian countries, the referee is the absolute upholder of the law - he plays God, players await his judgement and accept it, he is the ultimate arbiter, he provides the Truth and is for all intents and purposes not intrinsically part of the game. In France, Spain, Italy and South America, the referees role is more similar to that of a jester. He is absolutely inside the game, he is a part of it and is open to influence and trickery just as a defender would be in the face of an attacker. Hence someone raised on the "English" version of sportsmanship/etiquette would perhaps see the minor indiscretions such as diving/shirt pulling etc - general deception of the referee - and generally accepted as being more prevalent amongst players of those nations - more readily and thus using those as markers with which to mark players from those nations with darker skin down in the Sportsmanship stats.

That's a very clever and diplomatic way of writing "You cheating foreign bar stewards" 😉

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