LGBT Inclusion for DCFC

[Dubiousmagoo]

Quote

These groups are so so important to the future of our club. We are all Derby fans irrespective of faith, race, sexual preference or gender. Of course, there are going to be terms and issues that some are unfamiliar with or seem at odds with their own personal views. There is nothing wrong with discussion and debate but whilst the behaviour and choice of offensive terms make other Derby fans feel uncomfortable going to a game then the need for these groups is of the highest importance. great work @ramsLGBT

 

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

My point was the likening of being lgbt to having a disability ?

To be 100% honest Archie  - I was well aware of that potential interpretation when I posted it, but the link was posted in specific response to the quote that accompanied it.

Quote

 im not sure how specifically having separate groups of fans does anything to address the problems if there are any.

So it was about minority groups setting up fan organisations for their specific circumstances. Not about precisely equating one protected characteristic with another. Obviously they are different by definition, but I bet there are a lot of shared experiences around prejudice, discrimination and isolation - and the setting up of a supporters group in each case has much the same objectives.

Anyone can set up a supporters group for a particular characteristic (protected or otherwise) and no one should need to question their motives or objectives. The fact that in this case, several people on here have immediately started questioning why an LGBT group even needs to exist shows how far we have to go.

 

[cheron85]

14 hours ago, Alpha said:

You have to call me homophobic, I guess? Then I get offended that you're labeling me something I'm not. 

See, this is what I mean by it creating like a bubbling pot ready to boil over. You will get those insisting they're offended and you get those blatantly offending people claiming its political correctness gone mad. 

I actually don't think we should jump right to that - Like anything there's a spectrum of viewpoints on the world and a spectrum of behaviors - The thing that makes me think you're not homophobic is you immediately recognise that using gay as an insult is wrong

I think over time (hopefully) as generations go on kids will get better educated on things and therefore using gay as a playground insult will (hopefully) go away - I fully admit I used it well into my twenties without even thinking about it - It was only when one of my best mates (and now flatmate) who is gay started telling me off for using it that I stopped - I just had to make an active effort to stop using it because it had become such a subconscious part of of my vocabulary

That plus I'm only going to use Bamford as an insult from now on ? 

[Dethorn]

All this stuff winds me up.

I truly believe that highlighting Homophobia and racisim and the like, continues to force it into mainstream media, and when some of it is pathetic (I will give an examples in a minute) it winds me up, I can only assume that I am not the only one. This then confuses me because I start to get Anti-....... feelings but...

I am not homophobic, sexist or racist ???

But as I go through life I am becoming more and more 'chip on the shoulderist'

By that I mean the minority (probably) of these groups who think that everything that goes wrong in there life is because they are .... Gay/Female/Black/Jewish/Disabled/Whatever. We will have a support group for it, we will start an exclusive club for it

Maybe it is because I am 48 year old, white, married, slightly overweight, folicly challenged, male, that just gets on with it because there is not really any group for me, that I feel any bitterness here.

I hate what PC is doing to me - I overthink many sentences in my life because I do not want to offend. I even worried about what order I should have typed two of these sentences. I mean I thought in the totally PC world LGBT was out of date now ? Doesn't it have a C or Q on the end, Apologies If I have offended here, I do not mean it , I genuinely cannot keep up with it all.

Four Examples

Some guy on talk sport the other week saying that the use of 'Lazy' and 'Beast' within football is associated with Black players and therefore should not be used. This really got my goat, I thought 'Lazy' meant 'Lazy'. I called Glenn Hoddle and Jan Molby gifted and Lazy, My brother is Lazy, My step-daughter is lazy. Hell I enjoy be lazy once I have got everything done, it is my dailly ambition. Beast - I think the first time I used this was probably Mick Harford.

Example number two.

I was sat in the front row of the away end at Bristol City, and the Derby fan behind me persistantly shouting "Bald this" or "Bald that" at the Bristol City Goalie. I nearly took my beany off and said what is it about being bald that offends you pal. But then I realised I am slipping (being pushed) into the chip on my shoulder brigade if I do that. Because to be honest I am bald, My dad, two brothers and two gramps were all bald. In fact I am quite proud of being bald. What winds me up is that it is alright to shout this at the goalie but not many many many other things.

Example three

It appeared clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn mouthed Stupid Woman in the direction of Teresa May. He came back and apologised saying that he had actually said "stupid people" surely in a world that isn't getting tied up with itself he should be apologising for the word stupid !!!

Example Four

We have a Queen, A female Prime Minister, We have Cressida Dick possibly three of the most important people in the country are women. We have Graham Norton one of the top earners at the BBC who I think is topped by Clare Balding who is Gay and Female. We have para olympics, and womens football and rugby that we are supposed to give equal billing to the main events, where the absolute truth is that less people are interested. I mean Korea v France is on tonight in the womens world cup on BBC when we have oodles of sports channels. I would not watch Korea v France in the Mens world cup, But I do think the Champions league Final when it involves two british clubs should be on a mainstream channel over this.

 

I really like Paul Sinha who says it is great being Asian and Gay as it means he gets lots of work because he ticks two boxes. And in that there is another crux of my problem, if any of the 'marginalised' people get there jobs because of the boxes they tick over another candidate - then shame on us.

 

[Archied]

22 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

To be 100% honest Archie  - I was well aware of that potential interpretation when I posted it, but the link was posted in specific response to the quote that accompanied it.

So it was about minority groups setting up fan organisations for their specific circumstances. Not about precisely equating one protected characteristic with another. Obviously they are different by definition, but I bet there are a lot of shared experiences around prejudice, discrimination and isolation - and the setting up of a supporters group in each case has much the same objectives.

Anyone can set up a supporters group for a particular characteristic (protected or otherwise) and no one should need to question their motives or objectives. The fact that in this case, several people on here have immediately started questioning why an LGBT group even needs to exist shows how far we have to go.

 

Not seen too many anti having an lgbt group

[Mafiabob]

 

[desirelines]

1 hour ago, Dethorn said:

All this stuff winds me up.

I truly believe that highlighting Homophobia and racisim and the like, continues to force it into mainstream media, and when some of it is pathetic (I will give an examples in a minute) it winds me up, I can only assume that I am not the only one. This then confuses me because I start to get Anti-....... feelings but...

I am not homophobic, sexist or racist ???

But as I go through life I am becoming more and more 'chip on the shoulderist'

By that I mean the minority (probably) of these groups who think that everything that goes wrong in there life is because they are .... Gay/Female/Black/Jewish/Disabled/Whatever. We will have a support group for it, we will start an exclusive club for it

Maybe it is because I am 48 year old, white, married, slightly overweight, folicly challenged, male, that just gets on with it because there is not really any group for me, that I feel any bitterness here.

I hate what PC is doing to me - I overthink many sentences in my life because I do not want to offend. I even worried about what order I should have typed two of these sentences. I mean I thought in the totally PC world LGBT was out of date now ? Doesn't it have a C or Q on the end, Apologies If I have offended here, I do not mean it , I genuinely cannot keep up with it all.

Four Examples

Some guy on talk sport the other week saying that the use of 'Lazy' and 'Beast' within football is associated with Black players and therefore should not be used. This really got my goat, I thought 'Lazy' meant 'Lazy'. I called Glenn Hoddle and Jan Molby gifted and Lazy, My brother is Lazy, My step-daughter is lazy. Hell I enjoy be lazy once I have got everything done, it is my dailly ambition. Beast - I think the first time I used this was probably Mick Harford.

Example number two.

I was sat in the front row of the away end at Bristol City, and the Derby fan behind me persistantly shouting "Bald this" or "Bald that" at the Bristol City Goalie. I nearly took my beany off and said what is it about being bald that offends you pal. But then I realised I am slipping (being pushed) into the chip on my shoulder brigade if I do that. Because to be honest I am bald, My dad, two brothers and two gramps were all bald. In fact I am quite proud of being bald. What winds me up is that it is alright to shout this at the goalie but not many many many other things.

Example three

It appeared clear to me that Jeremy Corbyn mouthed Stupid Woman in the direction of Teresa May. He came back and apologised saying that he had actually said "stupid people" surely in a world that isn't getting tied up with itself he should be apologising for the word stupid !!!

Example Four

We have a Queen, A female Prime Minister, We have Cressida Dick possibly three of the most important people in the country are women. We have Graham Norton one of the top earners at the BBC who I think is topped by Clare Balding who is Gay and Female. We have para olympics, and womens football and rugby that we are supposed to give equal billing to the main events, where the absolute truth is that less people are interested. I mean Korea v France is on tonight in the womens world cup on BBC when we have oodles of sports channels. I would not watch Korea v France in the Mens world cup, But I do think the Champions league Final when it involves two british clubs should be on a mainstream channel over this.

 

I really like Paul Sinha who says it is great being Asian and Gay as it means he gets lots of work because he ticks two boxes. And in that there is another crux of my problem, if any of the 'marginalised' people get there jobs because of the boxes they tick over another candidate - then shame on us.

 

This whole post reminds me of the quote: “When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Dethorn said:

Maybe it is because I am 48 year old, white, married, slightly overweight, folicly challenged, male, that just gets on with it because there is not really any group for me, that I feel any bitterness here

all 6 of those characteristics apply to me. Yet I don't feel any of the bitterness or the shoulder-chip you speak of. None of the examples you mention bother me in the slightest. They have zero effect on my life. Yes I could let them wind me up, annoy me, puzzle me, eat me up - whatever, but life is too short.

Is it really because you think there is no group for us? That's actually a cause for celebration because we don't need a group. Have you ever been beaten up or abused for any of those characteristics? I know I haven't. We take it for granted that it won't happen.

Life feels a lot happier when you stop worrying about stuff like this and just lend your unconditional support to people who don't have the luxury of taking that for granted.

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

 

The above and other incidents are not about homophobia or racism or religion or culture or anything else that the perpetrators of this kind of stuff try to dress it up as or hide behind , our society in modern Britain is a decent caring and accepting one ,

for me it’s time we put far more time ,money and effort into catching and jailing the scum that do this stuff , they are not just targeting gay people they target whatever is in front of them ,I could be a woman, a young black or Asian lad, a goth, a young lad minding his own business ,a pensioner ,the list goes on 

we need to unite and stamp this crap out not divide into sub groups of victims of this crap and lose sight of what it’s really about now,

take a walk through any town centre on a Friday ,Saturday night , look at the scum England fans in Holland and Portugal this week ,yet they were in no mad rush to get out to Russia for World Cup,(mmmmm wonder why?)

we no longer have major problem with homophobia or racism in this country ( thanks to brave people who at great costs stood for their rights)

what we do have is a persistent long standing and ongoing problem with violent scum bags who for some reason we seem to refuse to stamp out

 

[Archied]

14 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

all 6 of those characteristics apply to me. Yet I don't feel any of the bitterness or the shoulder-chip you speak of. None of the examples you mention bother me in the slightest. They have zero effect on my life. Yes I could let them wind me up, annoy me, puzzle me, eat me up - whatever, but life is too short.

Is it really because you think there is no group for us? That's actually a cause for celebration because we don't need a group. Have you ever been beaten up or abused for any of those characteristics? I know I haven't. We take it for granted that it won't happen.

Life feels a lot happier when you stop worrying about stuff like this and just lend your unconditional support to people who don't have the luxury of taking that for granted.

You never been beaten up ,threatened for some made up reason that suits some scumbag/scumbags you have been unlucky enough to come into contact with at the wrong time ? If the answer is no then you are a lucky man ,lots have and do and I can tell you it matters not a jot whether you are gay, black ,Muslim ,goth, Scottish,English or whatever,you having it

[RoyMac5]

26 minutes ago, Archied said:

The above and other incidents are not about homophobia or racism or religion or culture or anything else that the perpetrators of this kind of stuff try to dress it up as or hide behind , our society in modern Britain is a decent caring and accepting one...

FFS. Not about homophobia? 

True it's about 

Quote

Melania added: ‘What upsets me the most is that violence has become a common thing, that sometimes it’s necessary to see a woman bleeding after having been punched to feel some kind of impact. ‘I’m tired of being taken as a sexual object, of finding out that these situations are usual, of gay friends who were beaten up just because.

‘We have to endure verbal harassment and chauvinist, misogynistic and homophobic violence.’

The Metropolitan Police confirmed they had started an investigation into the homophobic attack.

 

Would the attackers have been brave enough to chose people who are seen as mainstream? No they chose a couple they could see belonged to an 'easily isolated minority'. Who they no doubt believed didn't belong in their normal world and most people couldn't give a toss about!

[Dethorn]

46 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

 

Is it really because you think there is no group for us? That's actually a cause for celebration because we don't need a group. Have you ever been beaten up or abused for any of those characteristics? I know I haven't. We take it for granted that it won't happen.

Life feels a lot happier when you stop worrying about stuff like this and just lend your unconditional support to people who don't have the luxury of taking that for granted.

No it is not because I think there is no group for us but object to other groups feeling like they should get some kind of special treatment.

Have I been beaten up for one of those characteristics?

No.... but I have feared for it, being a white person who walked into the wrong pub.

I left quickly and decided not to go back there

I did not create a protest group to suggest I and people like me should be allowed to drink there.

Sometimes Life is hard, celebrate the days that it isn't, do not expect happiness and easiness to fall in your lap whatever group you are in or not in

[desirelines]

37 minutes ago, Archied said:

we no longer have major problem with homophobia or racism in this country

Wow. ? 

This hot take is pure toilet. 

[TuffLuff]

I think I’ve said this before in a similar thread in the past but i feel its relevant to bring up again.

I play a tiny part in the music scene around Sheffield, in that I help run a small venue, play in bands etc and I have done for a number of years. For a long time I thought music was a great ‘equaliser’, that we were large and inclusive group where everyone was welcome. A few years ago I went to a fundraiser show for a LGBT charity and what struck me was the amount of people there who didn’t go to other gigs around the city. It was a real eye opener because they were dancing and having a brilliant time but it made me realise that the thought of ‘I like music, I’m going to go and watch this band tonight’ isn’t an easy option for everyone.  That this group has to find their own night so they could go out and enjoy themselves and just because we say it’s inclusive doesn’t make it so.

Now in the context of Derby having an LGBT group I feel it’s a similar situation. It’s ok saying ‘oh sexuality doesn’t bother me’, but its another to act on that in reality. Personally I do feel there’s a bit of putting your head in the sand with that statement if I’m honest, even though I’m sure thats not the intention of most. If we want football/Derby County to be fit everyone then I think this is a good step forward. I’d also encourage other supporters groups and the representatives from the south stand to get behind it and work with you to make something special.

Anyway that’s largely my point, this could be a really good initiative and all we need as a club is be supportive and welcoming. What’s the catch?

[Archied]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

FFS. Not about homophobia? 

True it's about 

 

It’s about violence of scum bags , do you honestly believe that if no one was gay they wouldn’t be finding something else to target,

for me this debate has been really helpful in trying to clarify the issue raised re proposed DCFC, lgbt group

as I’ve e made clear I think it’s a fantastic thing if it helps people feel comfortable and confident to attend football games , I think that is positive and not in the least divisive, 

where I had the nagging doubt was the statement that it be used as a platform for lgbt issues and that can for lots feel divisive though they are not quite sure why and for me I think I’ve figured through this debate that we shouldn’t be divided on combating the scum that make people’s lives a misery 

[Archied]

9 minutes ago, desirelines said:

Wow. ? 

This hot take is pure toilet. 

So you don’t believe that the vast majority of people in this country are neither homophobic or racist?

 

[Stive Pesley]

41 minutes ago, Archied said:

You never been beaten up ,threatened for some made up reason that suits some scumbag/scumbags you have been unlucky enough to come into contact with at the wrong time ? If the answer is no then you are a lucky man ,lots have and do and I can tell you it matters not a jot whether you are gay, black ,Muslim ,goth, Scottish,English or whatever,you having it

No I've not, and I realise that may be more through luck, and a little bit of judgement at times - but I get where you are coming from.

I will say this though - it does matter a jot if you are in an easily identifiable minority, because the scumbags who do this are looking for an excuse to vent their rage. It raises the probability of you being "the one" that they pick on considerably.

In the same way that if I was 6 inches taller, considerably more muscular with a cold steel glare I'd say that would lower the probability of me being the one the violent angry scumbag chose to try and assault

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

It’s about violence of scum bags...

where I had the nagging doubt was the statement that it be used as a platform for lgbt issues and that can for lots feel divisive though they are not quite sure why and for me I think I’ve figured through this debate that we shouldn’t be divided on combating the scum that make people’s lives a misery 

And as I said some scum bags find it easier to attack people that are seen as 'outsiders' because no-one is bothered about them. 

Dealing with people's homophobia, racism, etc is about dealing with people's fear of 'other'. The 'platform for lgbt issues' isn't about insisting that everyone should try gay sex! Nor is it about demanding anything other than people think about how they are reacting to people who are different to themselves.

[RoyMac5]

21 minutes ago, Dethorn said:

No it is not because I think there is no group for us but object to other groups feeling like they should get some kind of special treatment.

Have I been beaten up for one of those characteristics?

No.... but I have feared for it, being a white person who walked into the wrong pub.

Imagine spending most of your life walking into the wrong pub then. And there are no other pubs for you, well except your mates have set one up. Where do you think you'd prefer to go?

Think yourself lucky that your world is full of pubs you can safely visit.

[Archied]

31 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

FFS. Not about homophobia? 

True it's about 

 

Would the attackers have been brave enough to chose people who are seen as mainstream? No they chose a couple they could see belonged to an 'easily isolated minority'. Who they no doubt believed didn't belong in their normal world and most people couldn't give a toss about!

You do realise that you have totaly agreed with what I said don’t you ? 

Again ,as I said , violent scumbags looking to bully and inflict violence and misery on someone/anyone ,, start finding them ,locking them up and throwing away the keys and we are on the right track ,,, this Saturday nights homophobes are next Saturday nights ,islamaphobes , next Saturday nights racists , next event Saturday nights ,,,, well you see what I mean