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LGBT Inclusion for DCFC


ramsLGBT

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4 hours ago, TommyPowel said:

Maybe its my age thing but to me the world  going PC mad.why is it that gay people can call each other poofs queens etc but straight people arent allowed to? I am not anti anyone just bloody confused

Yes it's a bit like walking on eggshells in todays PC society. 

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1 hour ago, ramsLGBT said:

Thanks for your responses everyone. Some really good discussions taking place, and in such a positive way. It's great to see.

Going to try to cover a couple of bits in one post ?

As others have said, this is what we strive towards and hope that one day will be the case. Even though (in the UK) things are a lot rosier for the LGBT community, there are still prejudices and a lot of stigma. The idea of LGBT inclusive groups are to provide a safe place for those who are worried about those prejudices being shown. For people who want to be themselves where otherwise they feel that they can't.

I also don't see it as an exclusive group. The only people who I would actively not want to be part of an LGBT Supporters Group are those with anti-LGBT views. You don't have to be a member of the LGBT community to be on board; just be an ally! That's all we ever ask.

And I think on the whole, members of the LGBT community wouldn't be too offended by that, I know that I wouldn't. I know you don't mean it in a discriminatory way. It's purely because that's a word you've grown up to use. I would ask you to think about using the term as you are using it as a negative, but if it slipped out as a result of habit, I don't think too many would be particularly offended.

I link this back to the headlines in the news recently about a 'straight pride' in Boston. Without trying to be somebody who is leading an LGBT campaign (i'm purely interested in seeing as many LGBT people as possible enjoying football); the LGBT community are still marginalised, where heterosexual people have not. LGBT groups (in a more general sense) are needed, Non-LGBT groups are not. That's where the difference lies unfortunately.

Well the aim of the research is to find out if there is a need or desire for a group, or not. It may be that on the whole we're happy with the way things are, people feel happy and included and we don't need a group. However, the important consideration here is that there are likely to be members of the LGBT community that wouldn't feel comfortable being themselves at a football match. Football can be seen as a very masculine environment, it can feel very hostile at times. There is also still a stigma attached to homophobia in football; which we need to address.

I agree that I think the vast majority of football fans don't even bat an eyelid or care about who they're sat next to, as long as we're all enjoying the football. The idea of an LGBT group isn't necessarily to draw attention to ourselves and to shout about being LGBT. The most important part is to make this within the LGBT community feel welcome at Derby County. To answer any questions they have about being LGBT at a football match. So that they have a safe place and a community where they can ask questions, get involved where they previously wouldn't have and enjoy their football. It's also an opportunity to raise awareness (as we still need to do) about LGBT issues.

 

i was on board with the whole idea of the group to help lgbt people feel more comfortable at games and encourage ALL people to attend games , the last line ( bolded) is where I think you lose people and gets their backs up because that sounds more like using the club as a vehicle to raise awareness on lgbt issues ,, rather ,than help lgbt people integrate 

 

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3 minutes ago, Archied said:

i was on board with the whole idea of the group to help lgbt people feel more comfortable at games and encourage ALL people to attend games , the last line ( bolded) is where I think you lose people and gets their backs up because that sounds more like using the club as a vehicle to raise awareness on lgbt issues ,, rather ,than help lgbt people integrate 

It's a combination. The primary reason would be to help supporters to support; to help people to enjoy football in a positive environment.

I think that any platform that can help to eradicate homophobia and forms of prejudice against the LGBT community is a positive. DCFC have supported LGBT causes before e.g. Rainbow Laces / Football against Homophobia. As a key part of the Derby community, DCFC have a platform to help to ensure that important issues are addressed and if we can help to organise events with the club that raise awareness, that can only be a good thing. Much as the club would also support causes that look to address racism and other forms of prejudice.

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21 minutes ago, ramsLGBT said:

It's a combination. The primary reason would be to help supporters to support; to help people to enjoy football in a positive environment.

I think that any platform that can help to eradicate homophobia and forms of prejudice against the LGBT community is a positive. DCFC have supported LGBT causes before e.g. Rainbow Laces / Football against Homophobia. As a key part of the Derby community, DCFC have a platform to help to ensure that important issues are addressed and if we can help to organise events with the club that raise awareness, that can only be a good thing. Much as the club would also support causes that look to address racism and other forms of prejudice.

For me the first part you propose is fantastic and a great idea and can only be seen as positive , the second part just has a whole different feel , 

im one of those boring people who don’t feel the need to know anybody s sexual orientation as it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to me and get tired of people banging on about being either gay or straight or whatever 

 

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2 hours ago, Alpha said:

I agree completely. 

It makes no sense that I can say I'm not homophobic but then i call someone gay as an insult. It really does make no sense and yet there it is.

How do you go about stopping it? 

You have to call me homophobic, I guess? Then I get offended that you're labeling me something I'm not. 

See, this is what I mean by it creating like a bubbling pot ready to boil over. You will get those insisting they're offended and you get those blatantly offending people claiming its political correctness gone mad. 

But what about me and @muttley72. I'm not homophobic and he's gay! But we've both just told a Forest player rolling around on the deck get up you fairy. Holding is head, the big poof. 

How do you protect LGBT people from knob heads without punishing average Dave on a building site who just called his labourer gay. 

Or do you blitz the whole thing? 

Ok, I'm going to take a deep breath and throw in a suggestion. Being racist or homophobic is more about discriminating against someone because of their skin colour or sexual orientation etc, rather than simply name calling, and indeed name calling without venom or nastiness behind it.

Hence calling someone gay is insulting but not homophobic, but for example not going into a shop they run because they are homosexual, or refusing to give them a room in a hotel etc, is.

The dictionary definition of homophobia is "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people." You don't appear to be either @Alpha despite the odd calling someone gay. 

It might offer an explanation of sorts as to how you navigate your moral maze.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Archied said:

For me the first part you propose is fantastic and a great idea and can only be seen as positive , the second part just has a whole different feel , 

im one of those boring people who don’t feel the need to know anybody s sexual orientation as it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to me and get tired of people banging on about being either gay or straight or whatever 

 

I tend to agree with you on this. I think that a group that contributes to help the matchday experience and to attract LGBT supporters is brilliant. 

If it’s assisting the club with Rainbow Laces then fine, I’m not sure that I would want to be part of something that pushes much further than this on gay issues. Whatever we do should be primarily about the football and matchday experience. The worst thing would be to have an LGBT supporters group that tries to influence other supporters and possibly alienate people that would otherwise be allies. 

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1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

Not going to keep posting here as have made my point,  i know some don't agree but i do think a gay player will be the subject of abuse. 

Its not that long ago a large quantity of our fans revelled in chanting what they thought was a humorous chant about Nottingham forests chairman dying.

They would do the same to a gay player without a second thought. In my opinion.

Clearly the people posting here arent morons and i think we all find the idea of abuse horrendous. All we disagree on is how likely it is.

To be honest i hope you are right and i am wrong.

 

Mate I remember Justin Fashanu and what happened there. There is obviously far more support in the modern game and more tolerance in society generally, but its still impossible to forget just how awful it was for him and the shame football supporters brought upon the game with their abuse.

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Been deliberating if I should comment on this or not because I don't want to be seen as anything I'm not. Which is wrong in itself. 

I haven't read all the comments and I'm sure some have the same opinion as me and some will not. 

For me an LGBT supporter group is not needed.  We should all support the club as one as I beleive we do and should continue to do so.  In my opinion creating such groups only creates further divisions in society. 

If I started a white male only supporters group it would be seen as racist and sexist but why is that any different to a LGBT supporters group. 

Just my opinion no offence meant to anyone. 

COME ON YOU RAMS!!! 

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44 minutes ago, Archied said:

For me the first part you propose is fantastic and a great idea and can only be seen as positive , the second part just has a whole different feel , 

im one of those boring people who don’t feel the need to know anybody s sexual orientation as it doesn’t make a blind bit of difference to me and get tired of people banging on about being either gay or straight or whatever 

 

I fully appreciate that you see people for people. However, not everybody does. It's hard to explain to those who don't see why somebody's sexuality is an issue; just why there needs to be attempts to educate those who do. But we absolutely still need to educate about diversity, love and inclusivity.

18 minutes ago, PastRAMi said:

For me an LGBT supporter group is not needed.  We should all support the club as one as I beleive we do and should continue to do so.  In my opinion creating such groups only creates further divisions in society. 

If I started a white male only supporters group it would be seen as racist and sexist but why is that any different to a LGBT supporters group. 

Just my opinion no offence meant to anyone. 

COME ON YOU RAMS!!! 

The difference is that there is no reason for a white male only group. An LGBT supporters group would not exist just to categorise people. It would exist because it's needed. That's why i'm researching it, to see if it has it's place.

Taking football aside for now; I can absolutely tell you that LGBT groups help the LGBT community. They provide safe places for people who experience prejudice and hate on a regular basis to grow, to question and to be themselves; when they spend large parts of their days worried about what people think; what people say; whether they're going to be verbally or physically abused for who they are.

A lot of LGBT people experience very little abuse, but a lot do. Something that unless you've seen it, you probably don't see how bad it can be.

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17 minutes ago, PastRAMi said:

If I started a white male only supporters group it would be seen as racist and sexist but why is that any different to a LGBT supporters group

The main difference is that you don’t hear people chanting “get up off the floor you white middle class male” and that the support is predominately white male, in effect you’ve got your group. 

I totally agree we should be one group of supporters, I’ve been going 40 years and coped without a LGBT group. However, I do think it’s a great idea if it allows people that might feel uncomfortable going to a match that wouldn’t usually the opportunity. 

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11 minutes ago, PastRAMi said:

Been deliberating if I should comment on this or not because I don't want to be seen as anything I'm not. Which is wrong in itself. 

I haven't read all the comments and I'm sure some have the same opinion as me and some will not. 

For me an LGBT supporter group is not needed.  We should all support the club as one as I beleive we do and should continue to do so.  In my opinion creating such groups only creates further divisions in society. 

If I started a white male only supporters group it would be seen as racist and sexist but why is that any different to a LGBT supporters group. 

Just my opinion no offence meant to anyone. 

COME ON YOU RAMS!!! 

Kind of mixed on your opinion , 

for me if any lgbt people feel that an lgbt group would enhance their enjoyment of going to Derby games and that group was going to help others feel confident and comfortable to start and continue going to games then yes it’s needed and I’m all for it , beyond that is where it becomes counter productive in modern Britain , the kind of minority scum that harass and assault lgbt people are the kind that would be doing it to someone of a different colour if they happened to be the poor sod they came across at the wrong time or someone of a different religion or anything else really 

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There’s also been the mental health initiative at the club that allows men to sit and chat and talk about issues they might be having. I’ve only seen positive comments about it, no one questioning why it’s needed, even though it’s not directly football related. This is just another initiative that progresses the club in a positive way. 

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If the LGBT group was set up in a similar way to the Punjab Ram, I can't see a problem.

Meet up with fellow members before the game and go for a pint, meet other members and make new mates and even arrange pre match drinks with groups from other clubs and if you enjoy each others company, there is no reason why members can't get season tickets in the same area.

But I don't think you need to have a separate block designated to the group. The 1884 group wanted a block in the south stand but couldn't have it because it would have forced people to move their season tickets from that area.

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4 minutes ago, ramsLGBT said:

I fully appreciate that you see people for people. However, not everybody does. It's hard to explain to those who don't see why somebody's sexuality is an issue; just why there needs to be attempts to educate those who do. But we absolutely still need to educate about diversity, love and inclusivity.

The difference is that there is no reason for a white male only group. An LGBT supporters group would not exist just to categorise people. It would exist because it's needed. That's why i'm researching it, to see if it has it's place.

Taking football aside for now; I can absolutely tell you that LGBT groups help the LGBT community. They provide safe places for people who experience prejudice and hate on a regular basis to grow, to question and to be themselves; when they spend large parts of their days worried about what people think; what people say; whether they're going to be verbally or physically abused for who they are.

A lot of LGBT people experience very little abuse, but a lot do. Something that unless you've seen it, you probably don't see how bad it can be.

My point is the kind of scum you describe can’t and won’t be educated ,they are looking for any excuse to vent their hate and violence on any target , we will have to agree to disagree and wish you all the best as for me an lgbt rams group has some value and can be a good thing if used for the positive but if used as a platform to promote lgbt issues it will be counter productive and breed resentment ( my opinion only)

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2 minutes ago, ossieram said:

If the LGBT group was set up in a similar way to the Punjab Ram, I can't see a problem.

Meet up with fellow members before the game and go for a pint, meet other members and make new mates and even arrange pre match drinks with groups from other clubs and if you enjoy each others company, there is no reason why members can't get season tickets in the same area.

But I don't think you need to have a separate block designated to the group. The 1884 group wanted a block in the south stand but couldn't have it because it would have forced people to move their season tickets from that area.

The suggestion of seats on the survey was something posed to me by a friend and I thought i'd include it as an option to see opinion. The suggestion was more that if a group of LGBT fans felt safer or happier sat together then they could arrange to get season tickets together. Then any new LGBT supporters who aren't as confident coming on their own can sit with them so they have friendly faces around them.

Always interesting to gauge opinions :)

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4 minutes ago, Archied said:

My point is the kind of scum you describe can’t and won’t be educated ,they are looking for any excuse to vent their hate and violence on any target , we will have to agree to disagree and wish you all the best as for me an lgbt rams group has some value and can be a good thing if used for the positive but if used as a platform to promote lgbt issues it will be counter productive and breed resentment ( my opinion only)

Your opinion is very much appreciated :)

IMO we do as much as we can to educate. Those people who will be hateful regardless then need to be called out. They may not change their attitudes and action based on sensible discussion; but they are much more likely to if people around them tell them / show them that it's not acceptable.

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i´ve been an outsider for so long that i've gotten used to it, cherish it even.  i do fit within the LGBT community, but i am not really a group person and don't feel the need to congregate or for others to stand up for my right to be me, in fact i resent it a bit, for their idea of me may be quite different to mine.  i do however acknowledge the need and rights of others to feel comfortable in their own skin in whatever way which works for them and so i am not strictly against any announced needed initiative of others who i have considerable in common with.  As you can already tell, i am torn on this complicated issue from between a personal perspective versus my societal views and wish of happiness for all

i like to keep my outlook simple.  People are just people and football fans are just football fans.  We come in all different sizes, shapes, colors and inclinations and what we have in common far outweighs our differences.  But we live in an increasingly complicated and i dare say manufactured divisive world where innumerable interest groups seem to me mainly concerned with their own narrow objectives. Somewhere i fear, someone is laughing heartily, divide and rule seemingly keeps working so well. 

i am probably just a simplistic idealist, but i hope for the day that we can join in our humanity in spite of our various differences

i am a group person in one way though, a Ram through and through and happy i am for it

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