LGBT Inclusion for DCFC

[muttley72]

4 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

 And lovely to see this being an open debate rather than all negative 

It shows what a great group this is, I don’t agree with everything said, but everyone’s point seems thought through and genuine to them, can’t ask for more than that. We’re all entitled to our opinions, and nice that no one has been shouted down for theirs. 

[VulcanRam]

@ramsLGBT I filled in the survey. I think it might have helped to have an answer in the middle of minor issue and major issue as I felt some of the answers were in the middle. Just a thought. 

[RodleyRam]

18 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

Think a few people are missing my point reference trying to promote inclusivity through exclusive means.

A comment from what I will describe as a professional social worker who works alongside and well FOR the LGBT community has also stuck in my mind and think it makes absolute sense:

"How does 10 members of the LGBT community getting together with only members of this community on a weekly basis promote inclusivity?" 

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and play the morale high ground against this type of view. But I think its absolutely true. I'm not racist, homophobic or anything of that ilk.

The LGBT community have done fantastically to promote equality and diversity to British culture. But in order to fully promote inclusiveness, they need to recognise it, integrate and just be.

Anyway, I understand that this isn't a popular opinion and may upset some folk so I will leave it there.

I think this is a really interesting conversation and there's a lot of change and acceptance going on in the world right now. Sadly, there's also a concerning amount of division going on too, which is often fuelled by a lack of empathy and fear of the other. Football has the opportunity to lead the way on issues like this and I'm sure lots of work is being done. Unfortunately though I think sport lags behind in many areas.

Humans are tribal. We will always form groups around interests, cultures, preferences and things even more fundamental like gender, enthnicity, age, sexual orientation etc. I'm not sure if it's inclusive or exclusive, it's just how we form relationships attached to our identity, we have an inherent need to 'belong'. The complexity that many people find more difficult to understand is that you can be a member of more than one group, often simultaneously i.e. you are more than just one part of you. You can be LGBT+, Derby and whatever else all at the same time and at other times choose to identify more specifically with one of those groups.

Suggesting that LGBT+ specific groups are exclusive is the same as saying being a Derby County fan is exclusive. Of course it is to a certain extent because that's often how people come together, that's the nature of identity. Some elements of identity are more powerful and emotive than others.

Im' outing myself as a white, middle-class male. It's often hard for us to see the need for this kind of work, particularly if we are not racist, homophobic etc ourselves directly. The systems are still inherently designed to favour us and we don't always recognise the fundamental need for others to have better access into these spaces. LGBT+ and other groups traditionally marginalised still have a lot of work to do to ensure they are heard and represented in mainstream or traditionally white male dominated domains, where they have been excluded and often abused. As some others have said, there's still a lot of work to do on this. What will really help is if those of us from traditional power bases stand alongiside them and proactively support.

[RoyMac5]

15 minutes ago, RodleyRam said:

Im' outing myself as a white, middle-class male. It's often hard for us to see the need for this kind of work, particularly if we are not racist, homophobic etc ourselves directly. The systems are still inherently designed to favour us and we don't always recognise the fundamental need for others to have better access into these spaces. LGBT+ and other groups traditionally marginalised still have a lot of work to do to ensure they are heard and represented in mainstream or traditionally white male dominated domains, where they have been excluded and often abused. As some others have said, there's still a lot of work to do on this. What will really help is if those of us from traditional power bases stand alongiside them and proactively support.

So true. Thank goodness for empathy though. ? ?

It's amusing all these posts asking why the need for an exclusive group are being posted on an (mostly) exclusive DCFC messageboard. ?

#ComeOnYou_Black&White&Rainbow_Rams

 

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, muttley72 said:

Just to say as well, I agree with most of you on here, and it would take a lot to offend me. There is a PC brigade, the same as there is in most sections of society now who have lost their sense of humour. I would absolutely hate anyone to tiptoe around me worried about using the wrong word. If you overstepped the mark I would say something and discuss it. There has to be a meeting somewhere in the middle where we are able to have banter with each other, but once it’s said without respect for another person it’s over the line.  We just need to get back to common sense. 

Well said Muttley. I am delighted you are in a long, happy and loving  relationship. Irrespective,  l have no problem, if all parties are consenting, if you enjoy your dick dastardly or have lots of rough and tumble with the Slag Brothers. To me you are a Ram making the best of it in a wacky old world.

[Leeds Ram]

It's tricky, I'm Bi myself and have winced a few times when someone in the south stand has marked something or someone out as 'gay' or 'pufter' or whatever. I'd never call a steward on them or feel like I don't belong but it can make me a bit queasy. Personally though I've very rarely felt really discriminated against following Derby for almost 20 years and that's saying something. There's been the odd drunk or chant where I've felt a bit off about it but that's about it and it happens once every few seasons. I tend to think football in my experience has been good at homogenising people in their support for a team rather than marking out differences which in this case has been a real positive. 

[muttley72]

5 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Well said Muttley. I am delighted you are in a long, happy and loving  relationship. Irrespective,  l have no problem, if all parties are consenting, if you enjoy your dick dastardly or have lots of rough and tumble with the Slag Brothers. To me you are a Ram making the best of it in a wacky old world.

You know I said I wouldn’t take offence? 

HOW VERY DARE YOU! ?

To be fair if you saw me and the other half it’s more of the gruesome twosome. You wouldn’t be making a pitstop Penelope. ?

 

[G STAR RAM]

I just wish a high profile footballer would come out so we can put to be this myth that it will be an earth shattering event. 

I look forward to everyone just going meh and carrying on as before.

If people wanted to be included then surely they want to be involved in the football matchday banter along with everyone else.

Unfortunately, gor me it appears that these groups exist to draw attention to themselves when there is really no need to as 99% of people go to football to watch a match and couldnt give a flying duck who the person sat next to them has slept with the night before. 

[maydrakin]

This can only be a positive thing.

It’s a way to initiate fans who may be a little reluctant to come to games, due to fear of discrimination. (Which sadly still occurs all too regularly in life, not just football.)

This is usually bred from ignorance, so if it shows such people that actually LGBT individuals are just normal people, it promotes tolerance and the group grows.

[Leeds Ram]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I just wish a high profile footballer would come out so we can put to be this myth that it will be an earth shattering event. 

I look forward to everyone just going meh and carrying on as before.

If people wanted to be included then surely they want to be involved in the football matchday banter along with everyone else.

Unfortunately, gor me it appears that these groups exist to draw attention to themselves when there is really no need to as 99% of people go to football to watch a match and couldnt give a flying duck who the person sat next to them has slept with the night before. 

I guess some people would say it's the difference between tolerance and acceptance? Toleration being we don't really care or approve of who you are as long as you follow the group norm, acceptance is more of a positive inclusion method inside society and other groups. Personally, I'm fine with toleration, I don't feel discriminated against and if i had a male partner to take to the football I'd feel comfortable doing so tbh. However, some feel acceptance is the model, whereby the showing of 'this is a good thing and support it' is the level we need to be at for minority communities to properly integrate and feel a genuine part of the social structure. It's tricky to always find the right balance. On the questionnaire i said i didn't know if i wanted an lgbt rams club partly because i know i wouldn't take part but also I'm not entirely sure dcfc needs it. If we had rampant homophobia then yeah I'd think we need that positive voice but i don't think we have that as a massive issue. 

[Sith Happens]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I just wish a high profile footballer would come out so we can put to be this myth that it will be an earth shattering event. 

I look forward to everyone just going meh and carrying on as before.

If people wanted to be included then surely they want to be involved in the football matchday banter along with everyone else.

Unfortunately, gor me it appears that these groups exist to draw attention to themselves when there is really no need to as 99% of people go to football to watch a match and couldnt give a flying duck who the person sat next to them has slept with the night before. 

If you think it will be a meh event i think you are deluded.

We still get black players abused and there are have been black players forever and we have hundreds or thousands in the game.

If a player comes out yes the majority would accept but what is distressing is from a recentish survey ONLY 82 % of fans said they wouldn't have an issue with a gay player, that means a massive 18% would.  Imagine 18% of fans at PP abusing a gay player, thats potentially 6000 people.

The survey also said 8% would stop watching their team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/37760114

There are too many morons attending football matches,  it would take a brave person to announce they are gay.

 

[ramsLGBT]

Thanks for your responses everyone. Some really good discussions taking place, and in such a positive way. It's great to see.

Going to try to cover a couple of bits in one post :)

Quote

Are you being inclusive by creating this exclusive group?

Why can't we all just be supporters of DCFC who do not tolerate homophobic behaviours?

As others have said, this is what we strive towards and hope that one day will be the case. Even though (in the UK) things are a lot rosier for the LGBT community, there are still prejudices and a lot of stigma. The idea of LGBT inclusive groups are to provide a safe place for those who are worried about those prejudices being shown. For people who want to be themselves where otherwise they feel that they can't.

I also don't see it as an exclusive group. The only people who I would actively not want to be part of an LGBT Supporters Group are those with anti-LGBT views. You don't have to be a member of the LGBT community to be on board; just be an ally! That's all we ever ask.

Quote

To be honest I probably say loads of things that someone could be offended by. The other day when Sissoko ducked out of a tackle with Salah I called him a fairy and said to my mate that it was a "gay tackle"

I try to go through life avoiding those who are easily offended and I'm pretty much bullet proof to being offended myself. 

It's good there's people trying to make a stand against discrimination where it exists. But it's undermined by those looking for it where it isn't. 

And I think on the whole, members of the LGBT community wouldn't be too offended by that, I know that I wouldn't. I know you don't mean it in a discriminatory way. It's purely because that's a word you've grown up to use. I would ask you to think about using the term as you are using it as a negative, but if it slipped out as a result of habit, I don't think too many would be particularly offended.

Quote

The term LGBT is exclusive.

How would people feel about a Non-LGBT Supporters Group? 

I link this back to the headlines in the news recently about a 'straight pride' in Boston. Without trying to be somebody who is leading an LGBT campaign (i'm purely interested in seeing as many LGBT people as possible enjoying football); the LGBT community are still marginalised, where heterosexual people have not. LGBT groups (in a more general sense) are needed, Non-LGBT groups are not. That's where the difference lies unfortunately.

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, it's got nothing to do with football, never had and never should. There's absolutely no need creating a supporters club for LGBT people.

Well the aim of the research is to find out if there is a need or desire for a group, or not. It may be that on the whole we're happy with the way things are, people feel happy and included and we don't need a group. However, the important consideration here is that there are likely to be members of the LGBT community that wouldn't feel comfortable being themselves at a football match. Football can be seen as a very masculine environment, it can feel very hostile at times. There is also still a stigma attached to homophobia in football; which we need to address.

Quote

Unfortunately, gor me it appears that these groups exist to draw attention to themselves when there is really no need to as 99% of people go to football to watch a match and couldnt give a flying duck who the person sat next to them has slept with the night before. 

I agree that I think the vast majority of football fans don't even bat an eyelid or care about who they're sat next to, as long as we're all enjoying the football. The idea of an LGBT group isn't necessarily to draw attention to ourselves and to shout about being LGBT. The most important part is to make this within the LGBT community feel welcome at Derby County. To answer any questions they have about being LGBT at a football match. So that they have a safe place and a community where they can ask questions, get involved where they previously wouldn't have and enjoy their football. It's also an opportunity to raise awareness (as we still need to do) about LGBT issues.

[muttley72]

12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I just wish a high profile footballer would come out so we can put to be this myth that it will be an earth shattering event. 

I look forward to everyone just going meh and carrying on as before.

If people wanted to be included then surely they want to be involved in the football matchday banter along with everyone else.

Unfortunately, gor me it appears that these groups exist to draw attention to themselves when there is really no need to as 99% of people go to football to watch a match and couldnt give a flying duck who the person sat next to them has slept with the night before. 

Again, just a straight forward question. Has the formation of Punjabi Rams, family areas negatively impacted your match day? Has it really spoilt the day for you? If not, and a new group could potentially attract new supporters is it really a bad thing? People don’t need to be involved that don’t want to be. 

[Alph]

42 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

So much on here I want to reply to but @muttley72 seems to be bossing the debate - And lovely to see this being an open debate rather than all negative

That's part of the problem though - It's the association with gay people somehow being weaker because of their sexuality - It's the same as calling someone a girl for crying - You're using it as an insult

I don't think you seem homophobic at all but the fact that we all so easily slip into terminology like this is part of the problem - It's not about whether someone is offended or not - It's about the kinds of words you use to insult people with even in jest (and by you I mean the universal 'you' rather than the specific 'you' in this case ?)

Plus we already have the answer to this issue - The only insult that anyone needs to use for anyone from now on and it's far far worse than the C bomb:

I'm stealing this

I agree completely. 

It makes no sense that I can say I'm not homophobic but then i call someone gay as an insult. It really does make no sense and yet there it is.

How do you go about stopping it? 

You have to call me homophobic, I guess? Then I get offended that you're labeling me something I'm not. 

See, this is what I mean by it creating like a bubbling pot ready to boil over. You will get those insisting they're offended and you get those blatantly offending people claiming its political correctness gone mad. 

But what about me and @muttley72. I'm not homophobic and he's gay! But we've both just told a Forest player rolling around on the deck get up you fairy. Holding is head, the big poof. 

How do you protect LGBT people from knob heads without punishing average Dave on a building site who just called his labourer gay. 

Or do you blitz the whole thing? 

[Woodley Ram]

7 hours ago, ramsLGBT said:

Good day everyone!

Introduction

I'd like to be able to say that Derby County is a very inclusive club. It has a warm community feel about it and has won awards for community involvement in recent years.

As a member of the LGBT community, I am conducting some research into views on homosexuality, bisexuality and transsexuality within the DCFC community. This includes experiences of homophobia, biphobia and transphobia on match days and experiences for LGBT supporters.

50 clubs across England, Scotland and Wales have LGBT Supporters Groups; so I am also interested in understanding whether there is a desire or need for a DCFC LGBT Supporters Group. I am keen to hear from LGBT supporters; and those who are not too!

Survey

If you have 5 minutes spare, please can you complete the survey at http://bit.ly/2JTDOqP and provide your experiences and thoughts.

The survey is completely anonymous and will allow me to understand the currently views surrounding LGBT experiences at Derby County Football Club.

Hopefully, following analysis of the results, I will be able to report back on whether there is work that can be done to further increase the level of inclusivity at Derby County; whether there is work to be done to help LGBT supporters more involved with the club or whether there is work that can be done to tackle homophobia, biphobia and transphobia at DCFC.

Spread the Word

If you are in a position to be able to help spread the word of this to other supporters and would be able to; that would be greatly appreciated. The more responses I receive, the better the results of the survey will be.

If you have a Twitter platform that a number of supporters follow, you can retweet the link from https://twitter.com/LGBTRams.

Queries

If you have any questions at all, please drop me a message on here, or on Twitter!

Thanks for your time; Up the Rams!

Done, I hate discrimination in any form or way. 

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

If you think it will be a meh event i think you are deluded.

We still get black players abused and there are have been black players forever and we have hundreds or thousands in the game.

If a player comes out yes the majority would accept but what is distressing is from a recentish survey ONLY 82 % of fans said they wouldn't have an issue with a gay player, that means a massive 18% would.  Imagine 18% of fans at PP abusing a gay player, thats potentially 6000 people.

The survey also said 8% would stop watching their team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/37760114

There are too many morons attending football matches,  it would take a brave person to announce they are gay.

 

8%  is actually pretty small in statistical terms when conducting surveys tbh. If you look at social attitude surveys for all kinds of things here and abroad you'd see a higher percentage than 8% claim something A) far crazier B) not entirely accurate of what they'd do when confronted with the 90% who would at least tolerate something. 

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, old ram 15 said:

8%  is actually pretty small in statistical terms when conducting surveys tbh. If you look at social attitude surveys for all kinds of things here and abroad you'd see a higher percentage than 8% claim something A) far crazier B) not entirely accurate of what they'd do when confronted with the 90% who would at least tolerate something. 

I realise that but its still massive numbers.

It should be 0%

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

I've got a feeling that this thread should probably be locked - as some of the replies are breaching the forum rules

The main (and only) point is that you're being encouraged to complete the questionnaire. There is a free text bit at the end where people can be as bigoted or unbigoted as they like. That's the place for it. Not in the replies here

I thought it was going well. 

I mean maybe you don't say anything that could offend anyone. But I shout things at football and say things at work and with friends that would offend some people I genuinely wouldn't mean to. Like I said, calling Kenny Burns fat. Saying to a workmate to stop being gay and just pick it up. Things like that. 

I hate threads that turn into a war between the constantly offended and the "it's just banter" brigade. 

But there's kind of a middle ground. Those that could take offence but see the banter and those that don't mean any offence but do take most of life not very seriously at all. If you know what I'm getting at? 

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

If you think it will be a meh event i think you are deluded.

We still get black players abused and there are have been black players forever and we have hundreds or thousands in the game.

If a player comes out yes the majority would accept but what is distressing is from a recentish survey ONLY 82 % of fans said they wouldn't have an issue with a gay player, that means a massive 18% would.  Imagine 18% of fans at PP abusing a gay player, thats potentially 6000 people.

The survey also said 8% would stop watching their team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/37760114

There are too many morons attending football matches,  it would take a brave person to announce they are gay.

Disagree strongly. 

It's hardly the biggest survey I've every seen. 4000 people of which less than 3000 were sports fans.

And 50% of these people have heard homophobic abuse, who has this abuse been aimed at because as far as I'm aware nobody has identified themselves as homosexual have they?

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

And 50% of these people have heard homophobic abuse, who has this abuse been aimed at because as far as I'm aware nobody has identified themselves as homosexual have they?

That is the point isn't it - using words such as poof and gay to give a phrase a negative meaning. I don't understand where your objections come from - do you think there are no minorities in the world? Or is it just that those minorities should get on with their lives and that all opportunities are open to them, they just have to ask?!