LGBT Inclusion for DCFC

[TigerTedd]

29 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

The term LGBT is exclusive.

How would people feel about a Non-LGBT Supporters Group? 

I'm all for the cause. A more inclusive term, which is what the group are trying to promote, would be along the lines of 'Rams against Homophobia' or something of that ilk. 

 

We could set up a ‘whites only’ group and see how that goes down?

Point is, groups like this need to exist to enable marginalised and discriminated against people to have more power, more control, more of a say, to help them sit on an equal footing with those that have had generations of institutional advantages. 

I used to make exactly the same arguments as this, cos I’m ghat sort of argumentative / devils advocate kind of guy. But I really get it now and have completely flipped my opinion. 

You can set up a rams against homophobia group, that’s a great idea. That wouldn’t supersede a specific lgbt group. It would work alongside it. 

also, im pretty sure, if a straight guy wanted to join the group, they’d be allowed. It’s not like last of the initiation ceremony is to kiss a bloke to prove your gay. 

[Stive Pesley]

38 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

The term LGBT is exclusive.

How would people feel about a Non-LGBT Supporters Group? 

I'm all for the cause. A more inclusive term, which is what the group are trying to promote, would be along the lines of 'Rams against Homophobia' or something of that ilk. 

 

Fair enough - I hope you've filled in the survey to that effect. I'm sure it's useful for them to know how a straight bloke thinks they should be going about things ?

[DCFC Ram]

Thanks for being given the opportunity to complete the survey. Keep up the good work!

[muttley72]

11 minutes ago, TommyPowel said:

Maybe its my age thing but to me the world  going PC mad.why is it that gay people can call each other poofs queens etc but straight people arent allowed to? I am not anti anyone just bloody confused

If a gay person I don’t know called me a poof or a queen, I’d take offence. My best mate is straight and calls me faggot, I call him c**tface. That’s fine. 

Now I don’t know you and whether you have a beer belly. But if without knowing you I walked up and said “oi oi you fat c**t” you may want to knock me down more than you would if someone you are mates with said it. Is that PC or just kinda decency? 

[TigerTedd]

7 minutes ago, TommyPowel said:

Maybe its my age thing but to me the world  going PC mad.why is it that gay people can call each other poofs queens etc but straight people arent allowed to? I am not anti anyone just bloody confused

It’s a confusing world. I’ll still use terms like ‘that’s proper gay, that is.’

maybe that’s wrong, and maybe it will get wiped out after a few generations. If you really dug I tot he connotations of why I say it, you could infer that I’m using ‘gay’ as a substitute for ‘wring’ and therefore I believe gayness to be wrong. Which I clearly don’t. 

People who want to be offended will take offence. Anything that is truly offensive will eventually dwindle out of common use. 

It depends how you use it too. As @muttley72 says, I’d bet if you were clearly using the word ‘poof’ as banter, no passing gay man is going to tell you off. But if you’re being threatening and abusive, then clearly you deserve a telling off.

people who mostly get confused by what they can and can’t say are squally people who don’t know anyone from that group, so feel uncomfortable with the correct language or whatever. My wife is Peruvian, I’ll make all sorts of South American jokes to her, normally about how everyone thinks she’s Mexican, why isn’t she better at making tacos, that sort of thing. But it’s been a running gag since we got married 10 years ago. It’s bants. But I can see how someone jumping into that conversation for the first time might feel a bit uncomfortable - ‘am I allowed to call her a Mexican?’ Honest answer is, I don’t know. But if you hang out with gay people, you’ll get to know what they find funny or acceptable, and where they draw the line. 

I’m still til toeing around my niece who just came out, to be honest. But I’m sure we’ll all work it out. 

[TigerTedd]

2 minutes ago, muttley72 said:

If a gay person I don’t know called me a poof or a queen, I’d take offence. My best mate is straight and calls me faggot, I call him c**tface. That’s fine. 

Now I don’t know you and whether you have a beer belly. But if without knowing you I walked up and said “oi oi you fat c**t” you may want to knock me down more than you would if someone you are mates with said it. Is that PC or just kinda decency? 

Or I could’ve just said this. 

[Sweetness34]

3 minutes ago, muttley72 said:

If a gay person I don’t know called me a poof or a queen, I’d take offence. My best mate is straight and calls me faggot, I call him c**tface. That’s fine. 

This sums it up for me. I call my gay mates queer, faggot etc but that's because we're mates. How you treat your friends absolutely should not be how you treat strangers! 

A lot of people will say "my mate's gay and don't mind being called poof" as if that makes it ok to talk to all people that way. 

[Sheikh n Bake]

Think a few people are missing my point reference trying to promote inclusivity through exclusive means.

A comment from what I will describe as a professional social worker who works alongside and well FOR the LGBT community has also stuck in my mind and think it makes absolute sense:

"How does 10 members of the LGBT community getting together with only members of this community on a weekly basis promote inclusivity?" 

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and play the morale high ground against this type of view. But I think its absolutely true. I'm not racist, homophobic or anything of that ilk.

The LGBT community have done fantastically to promote equality and diversity to British culture. But in order to fully promote inclusiveness, they need to recognise it, integrate and just be.

Anyway, I understand that this isn't a popular opinion and may upset some folk so I will leave it there.

[muttley72]

Just to say as well, I agree with most of you on here, and it would take a lot to offend me. There is a PC brigade, the same as there is in most sections of society now who have lost their sense of humour. I would absolutely hate anyone to tiptoe around me worried about using the wrong word. If you overstepped the mark I would say something and discuss it. There has to be a meeting somewhere in the middle where we are able to have banter with each other, but once it’s said without respect for another person it’s over the line.  We just need to get back to common sense. 

[muttley72]

3 minutes ago, Nick_Ram said:

"How does 10 members of the LGBT community getting together with only members of this community on a weekly basis promote inclusivity?" 

The LGBT community have done fantastically to promote equality and diversity to British culture. But in order to fully promote inclusiveness, they need to recognise it and just be. 

Nick, you make a really good point, and it’s good to talk / debate on different points of view. I don’t for one minute think your homophobic or racist. 

My answer is partly your answer, the LGBT community have been able to promote equality and diversity by having groups stand together and fight to get those rights, they weren’t just given. 

I’d suggest that football is still an area where a lot of LGBT folk don’t yet feel totally comfortable. By having a group that says “yep, you’re welcome here” we encourage more people to come along to matches and enjoy the experience. In time they mix with others, and at some point the group is no longer needed...that would be brilliant. It’s also down to the group to play their part as well and get involved. 

[muttley72]

35 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

also, im pretty sure, if a straight guy wanted to join the group, they’d be allowed. It’s not like last of the initiation ceremony is to kiss a bloke to prove your gay. 

Be careful what you wish for TigerTedd ?

[Alph]

1 hour ago, muttley72 said:

Just a quick and genuine question, whats your thoughts on Punjabi Rams, should that group not have been created?

So, I am a gay bloke... do I take offence at someone being called a poof or whatever? Nah, not really when it’s done as banter. However, I’ve been called a poof while being pinned against a wall, that isn’t as much fun.  I’m not big on waving banners, been there done that, but at 47 years old, and having been with my better half for 22 years I’m more about a meal and a pint down the local. 

So a LGBT supporters group? In my eyes it’s a brilliant idea. It’s not just about what the LGBT people get out of it, but also the positivity that it creates around the club. By having a LGBT supporters club we can encourage new supporters who may otherwise think they don’t belong, we can do community work, we can show that we are a forward thinking club and are serious about homophobia. Yes, also for me it would be nice to sit with likeminded people and go for a pint before a match, is that such a bad thing? (We actually suffer more than you know, try telling my gay mates I’m off to the match, we get abused from that side too ?).

It isn’t about stopping banter, I’m one of the worst for it, but to say that we’ve moved on to a point where groups and support is not needed is wide of the mark...to be fair, until you’ve been subjected to homophobia it’s difficult for you to comment and say it’s not an issue. 

 

 

See, this is where it becomes tricky.

If for you and like minded people this makes a part of your life easier and helps eradicate discrimination then it can only be a really really good thing. It 100% needs to happen.

But then everyone suddenly becomes aware of probably ignorant people like me (My bro is gay) saying stuff that could be offensive and will 100% be offensive to the many many people that are looking to be outraged by everything. People like me who just don't think before they speak then become the villain even though you're not offended and i didn't mean to offend you. 

It's not quite the same as me having to restrain myself from saying "you useless black x."

But the argument would be... what's the difference? Why do you think it's ok to call someone a big poof but not a black x? 

And I have no defence. 

But here's another one. I'd call a player like Andy Reid a fat x. People call Kenny Burns a fat x. 

I guess my point is, there is kind of a level of banter and a range of insults we consider acceptable. But all of these could be offensive to people. 

Now I don't want fat Dave next to me to be offended by me calling Andy Reid a fat git. But if there was such a crackdown on discrimination against fat people then I'd be in the poo. 

There isn't a right way to call someone a black x. (Well, that isn't actually off limits with my black and Asian mates but that's their humour. 

But maybe it's my age or something but calling someone a poof is immature banter. Whether it should be or not is not for me to say. I'm just saying it just happens on every building site, every factory, every football stadium, every nightclub...etc.  

I sound homophobic don't I? I'm not. I swear I don't care if you are gay. Not at all. Yet I'd call my mate gay if he moaned about a sore finger and it would purely be to tease him

It makes no sense but how do you remove the guys that do give you homophobic abuse without removing the immature planks like me? 

Or do you remove both? 

It sounds impossible to police. 

But believe me, i would love to think something like this could enhance your football experience. 

[roboto]

Can't really go around calling strangers fat now mate either.

I think, without getting called out for being too PC, we should step back and take note of the mental harm any discrimination can cause.

Andy Reid and Kenny Burns are Bamfords though.

[muttley72]

Alpha, if you got thrown out for calling someone a poof, I’d more than likely be thrown out with you for joining in. As I said in another post it’s not about not being able to say stuff, I hate people tiptoeing around me in case of offence...we have become WAY too sensitive and lost our sense of humour. 

There is a massive difference though between saying it as banter and saying it with venom through gritted teeth. I’ve been on the end of that and it’s frightening. We just have to be clever about seeing the difference. A LGBT group should be there to enhance the experience for LGBT supporters, but not at the expense of everyone else.

I’d go for a pint with pretty much anyone on here, I just like the idea that other people who may not think that The Rams (or football in general) is not for them because of it being hostile get the opportunity to enjoy it and we grow our support for The Rams further.

[NewtonRamDE55]

As far as I'm concerned, it's got nothing to do with football, never had and never should. There's absolutely no need creating a supporters club for LGBT people. Regardless of the groups people make or the work people do, there will always be people that will be offended by everything, as well as people that go out of their way to offend people. Not for me, but that's just my opinion on it.

[Stive Pesley]

I've got a feeling that this thread should probably be locked - as some of the replies are breaching the forum rules

The main (and only) point is that you're being encouraged to complete the questionnaire. There is a free text bit at the end where people can be as bigoted or unbigoted as they like. That's the place for it. Not in the replies here

[VulcanRam]

1 hour ago, StivePesley said:

Fair enough - I hope you've filled in the survey to that effect. I'm sure it's useful for them to know how a straight bloke thinks they should be going about things ?

I'm sure @Nick_Ram can stand up for himself, and you can be as condescending as you wish, but I thought that was actually the point of the OP asking us to fill out the survey, to gather the views of all? 

[cheron85]

So much on here I want to reply to but @muttley72 seems to be bossing the debate - And lovely to see this being an open debate rather than all negative

41 minutes ago, Alpha said:

But maybe it's my age or something but calling someone a poof is immature banter. Whether it should be or not is not for me to say. I'm just saying it just happens on every building site, every factory, every football stadium, every nightclub...etc.  

I sound homophobic don't I? I'm not. I swear I don't care if you are gay. Not at all. Yet I'd call my mate gay if he moaned about a sore finger and it would purely be to tease him

That's part of the problem though - It's the association with gay people somehow being weaker because of their sexuality - It's the same as calling someone a girl for crying - You're using it as an insult

I don't think you seem homophobic at all but the fact that we all so easily slip into terminology like this is part of the problem - It's not about whether someone is offended or not - It's about the kinds of words you use to insult people with even in jest (and by you I mean the universal 'you' rather than the specific 'you' in this case ?)

Plus we already have the answer to this issue - The only insult that anyone needs to use for anyone from now on and it's far far worse than the C bomb:

27 minutes ago, roboto said:

Andy Reid and Kenny Burns are Bamfords though.

I'm stealing this

[VulcanRam]

5 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

I've got a feeling that this thread should probably be locked - as some of the replies are breaching the forum rules

The main (and only) point is that you're being encouraged to complete the questionnaire. There is a free text bit at the end where people can be as bigoted or unbigoted as they like. That's the place for it. Not in the replies here

There haven't been any bigoted comments on here unless of course you are hoping upon hope that you can go through every word and find something to offend you. Strangely for this place, everyone seems to be behaving themselves.

[ossieram]

1 minute ago, StivePesley said:

I've got a feeling that this thread should probably be locked - as some of the replies are breaching the forum rules

The main (and only) point is that you're being encouraged to complete the questionnaire. There is a free text bit at the end where people can be as bigoted or unbigoted as they like. That's the place for it. Not in the replies here

Are you serious? The biggest problem I've found is that people get offended on behalf of other people.

I've got a gay stepdaughter, gay nephews and worked with and become mates with gay blokes over the years and will be honest and say that my views have changes massively over the years just through mixing with and talking to them, but that doesn't stop me from having a joke at their expense or calling them names to their face just like I do with mates who are not gay.

I'm fat and bald and couldn't give a toss if people say it to me as long as they are prepared to have some truths about themself pointed out in return.