eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just in case the Brexiteers think that I am lying, here is the transcript of the speech that Churchill made at Zurich University, and why he thought that a unified Europe was a good thing... http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, eddie said: Just in case the Brexiteers think that I am lying, here is the transcript of the speech that Churchill made at Zurich University, and why he thought that a unified Europe was a good thing... http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html But did he want a federal Europe with a European Army and did he want us eventually governed by Brussels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 24 minutes ago, eddie said: Just in case the Brexiteers think that I am lying, here is the transcript of the speech that Churchill made at Zurich University, and why he thought that a unified Europe was a good thing... http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html From what I've read, he was quite inconsistent on the issue. He seemed to love Europe but would not have liked the modern EU. And I'm no Brexit supporter. This isn't directed at you, but I don't understand why Churchill is even mentioned in debates such as this to be honest. A very different politician for a very different time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Curtains said: But did he want a federal Europe with a European Army and did he want us eventually governed by Brussels What part of "Britain has a veto which cannot be overridden" do you not understand, @Curtains? Garbage scare stories about Britain being forced to join a European army subservient to Brussels, being forced to join the Euro and swarms of Turks queuing up to steal your job are as believable as restrictions on your ability to eat bendy bananas. Are you also going to campaign against United Nations peacekeeping forces and NATO, because in both of those cases, armed forces from multiple nations act together? Churchill wanted a "United States of Europe" - he wanted greater integration, not less. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? If the rest of the EU want to present a more unified response to outside threats, what right do you have to say that they shouldn't? Wouldn't that be a good thing as far as NATO at least is concerned? More to the point, if the rest of the EU want to go down that route, why do you think that Britain staying in the EU will facilitate it, and even more to the point, why do you think that Britain leaving the EU is going to prevent it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, eddie said: Just in case the Brexiteers think that I am lying, here is the transcript of the speech that Churchill made at Zurich University, and why he thought that a unified Europe was a good thing... http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.” That ambiguity has haunted Britain’s relationship with its continental neighbours ever since, culminating in the UK referendum vote on June 23 for Brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/3d6bbabc-7122-11e6-a0c9-1365ce54b926 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, BurtonRam7 said: From what I've read, he was quite inconsistent on the issue. He seemed to love Europe but would not have liked the modern EU. And I'm no Brexit supporter. This isn't directed at you, but I don't understand why Churchill is even mentioned in debates such as this to be honest. A very different politician for a very different time. No disrespect but you may not be around if wasn’t for him . This is the Politics thread that’s why it’s valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, BurtonRam7 said: From what I've read, he was quite inconsistent on the issue. He seemed to love Europe but would not have liked the modern EU. And I'm no Brexit supporter. This isn't directed at you, but I don't understand why Churchill is even mentioned in debates such as this to be honest. A very different politician for a very different time. How do you know? The reason that Churchill has suddenly made an appearance in this thread is that DCFCFans' arch-Brexiteer @Curtains introduced him. I just did my usual trick of utterly destroying his argument. It wasn't difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, eddie said: What part of "Britain has a veto which cannot be overridden" do you not understand, @Curtains? Garbage scare stories about Britain being forced to join a European army subservient to Brussels, being forced to join the Euro and swarms of Turks queuing up to steal your job are as believable as restrictions on your ability to eat bendy bananas. Are you also going to campaign against United Nations peacekeeping forces and NATO, because in both of those cases, armed forces from multiple nations act together? Churchill wanted a "United States of Europe" - he wanted greater integration, not less. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? If the rest of the EU want to present a more unified response to outside threats, what right do you have to say that they shouldn't? Wouldn't that be a good thing as far as NATO at least is concerned? More to the point, if the rest of the EU want to go down that route, why do you think that Britain staying in the EU will facilitate it, and even more to the point, why do you think that Britain leaving the EU is going to prevent it? Mate we won’t leave the EU . You know it and I know it. Either way we will survive PS The EU has good points and bad points it’s just how you perceive their importance and leaving the EU doesn’t mean we leave Europe as a whole or the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Curtains said: No disrespect but you may not be around if wasn’t for him . This is the Politics thread that’s why it’s valid. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Barnier was 100% correct in what he said about nostalgia, and why Brexiteers have been 'triggered' by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, eddie said: Are you also going to campaign against United Nations peacekeeping forces and NATO, because in both of those cases, armed forces from multiple nations act together? Given that NATO and the UN Peacekeeping forces exist - I've always been a bit baffled by the subset of Leave voters who get a bee in their bonnet about how we'll end up in "an EU Army". Then I thought about it a bit harder and realised that yes - if we're part of a federated Army, we might end up taking part in wars that have absolutely nothing to do with us, and could very well be illegal. And then we might end up killing innocent civilians as a result. Good job that never happens now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Curtains said: No disrespect but you may not be around if wasn’t for him . This is the Politics thread that’s why it’s valid. I studied Churchill for A-Level history. He was, in hindsight, the right man in 1940. I respect him for his courage in the face of adversity. But he wasn't a very nice man (to put it lightly), outdated even in his time. His role in the war is massively overblown and he was largely incompetent in peacetime politics (see his time as chancellor of the exchequer as an example). I still feel a little patriotic when I see films about him, Dunkirk, etc. But he is completely irrelevant to the Brexit debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, eddie said: How do you know? The reason that Churchill has suddenly made an appearance in this thread is that DCFCFans' arch-Brexiteer @Curtains introduced him. I just did my usual trick of utterly destroying his argument. It wasn't difficult. Ha ha takes better men than you mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Given that NATO and the UN Peacekeeping forces exist - I've always been a bit baffled by the subset of Leave voters who get a bee in their bonnet about how we'll end up in "an EU Army". Then I thought about it a bit harder and realised that yes - if we're part of a federated Army, we might end up taking part in wars that have absolutely nothing to do with us, and could very well be illegal. And then we might end up killing innocent civilians as a result. Good job that never happens now I see the head of our army is heading over here in a couple of days. Baby blimp on standby... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, BurtonRam7 said: I studied Churchill for A-Level history. He was, in hindsight, the right man in 1940. I respect him for his courage in the face of adversity. But he wasn't a very nice man (to put it lightly), outdated even in his time. His role in the war is massively overblown and he was largely incompetent in peacetime politics (see his time as chancellor of the exchequer as an example). I still feel a little patriotic when I see films about him, Dunkirk, etc. But he is completely irrelevant to the Brexit debate. Then why do Brexiteers keep introducing him into their argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, eddie said: How do you know? The reason that Churchill has suddenly made an appearance in this thread is that DCFCFans' arch-Brexiteer @Curtains introduced him. I just did my usual trick of utterly destroying his argument. It wasn't difficult. I'm revising at the minute so I'm not going to find the source, although @Ghost of Clough's seems relevant. Whilst espousing the values of a united Europe, he definitely made a speech in which he rejected the idea of being fully integrated within it. Again, I don't think his opinions are relevant to this debate. His speeches were too ambiguous and undeveloped in this area to be taken seriously by either side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, eddie said: Then why do Brexiteers keep introducing him into their argument? Because the ones that do are silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Curtains said: Ha ha takes better men than you mate. When your entire response is to either stick your hands over your eyes or your fingers in your ears, it's difficult to get through. Such a shame you can't occasionally bring the third monkey into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, BurtonRam7 said: I studied Churchill for A-Level history. He was, in hindsight, the right man in 1940. I respect him for his courage in the face of adversity. But he wasn't a very nice man (to put it lightly), outdated even in his time. His role in the war is massively overblown and he was largely incompetent in peacetime politics (see his time as chancellor of the exchequer as an example). I still feel a little patriotic when I see films about him, Dunkirk, etc. But he is completely irrelevant to the Brexit debate. Mate it isn’t overblown. If it wasn’t for him we would have surrendered our sovereignty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, eddie said: When your entire response is to either stick your hands over your eyes or your fingers in your ears, it's difficult to get through. Such a shame you can't occasionally bring the third monkey into play. You always think you are right just a shame for you that 17 Million don’t agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Anyway, I'm out. DPD have just arrived - I have some glasses and 45 Belgian beers to unpack and find a temporary home for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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