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The Politics Thread 2019

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4 minutes ago, cstand said:

Published  2018 so after the Brexit vote. 

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2018-being-black-in-the-eu_en.pdf

The EU part of it was just under 6,000 people of African origin across 12 eu countries.

that's around 500 in the UK then. (based on a simple average, maybe they weighted it by country size, in which case it could clearly be +/- a few.

Out of those 500 - 21% HAD experienced racism and 3% HAD experience racist violence including from the police!!

1) Sample size worries me and

2) 21% out of 500 is nothing to be proud of. 105 people out of 500 is actually very worrying.

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45 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6746615/Britain-one-racist-countries-Europe-says-new-study.html

I'm not one for posting Daily Mail links - but as cstand made the claim that we are the "second least racist country in Europe" I thought I'd look that up. If the study he remembers is from 2016 then this study was only from Feb 2019 and shows we've slipped down the rankings somewhat

  1. Switzerland
  2. Sweden
  3. Spain
  4. France
  5. Denmark
  6. Norway
  7. Netherlands
  8. Ireland
  9. United Kingdom

Which goes to proves that we are becoming more intolerant as a nation I guess. What can have changed since 2016 I wonder?

This is the Daily Mail remember - this is not a leftie rag with a leftie agenda

No mention of slipping down the list that just your wrong opinion. Also the article states on the very top line we are one of least racist countries.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2018-being-black-in-the-eu_en.pdf

The EU part of it was just under 6,000 people of African origin across 12 eu countries.

that's around 500 in the UK then. (based on a simple average, maybe they weighted it by country size, in which case it could clearly be +/- a few.

Out of those 500 - 21% HAD experienced racism and 3% HAD experience racist violence including from the police!!

1) Sample size worries me and

2) 21% out of 500 is nothing to be proud of. 105 people out of 500 is actually very worrying.

Blimey the sample size is definitely worrying I was expecting The EU to do  a comprehensive study TBH. 

Edited by cstand

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/11/uk-has-seen-brexit-related-growth-in-racism-says-un-representative

Brexit has contributed to an environment of increased racial discrimination and intolerance, the UN special rapporteur on racism has said, as she identified a range of institutional prejudices that plague the lives of ethnic minorities in Britain.

Speaking at the end of her mission to the UK, Prof Tendayi Achiume pointed to a Brexit-related growth in “explicit racial, ethnic and religious intolerance”, including extreme views that have gained ground in mainstream political parties of the left and the right.

“The environment leading up to the referendum, the environment during the referendum, and the environment after the referendum has made racial and ethnic minorities more vulnerable to racial discrimination and intolerance,” she said.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/hate-crime-brexit-terrorist-attacks-england-wales

The number of recorded hate crimes has more than doubled in the past five years and is likely to be related in part to the aftermath of the Brexit vote and the spate of terrorist attacks last year, according to the Home Office.

Hate crime offences recorded by the police rose by 17% to 94,098 in the 12 months to March, figures for England and Wales show. This represents an increase of 123% since 2012-13, when 42,255 hate crimes were recorded.

The Home Office said the increase was largely driven by improvements in the way police record hate crime. But it also noted “spikes in hate crime following certain events such as the EU referendum and the terrorist attacks in 2017”.

I'm not a guardian reader I just googled "fact check"  racism on the increase in the UK"

For balance there is also his report:

https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/hatecrimethefactsbehindtheheadlines.pdf

There were media reports about a rise in hate crime during the EU referendum campaign, but the frequency of the reports increased in the days following the result. The following are examples of some of the headlines in the days after the vote: „Racist incidents feared to be linked to Brexit result‟ (The Guardian), 1 „Brexit: Wave of hate crime and racial abuse reported following EU referendum‟ (The Independent),2 „Police on alert as reports of hate crimes increase following EU referendum‟ (ITV News),3 „Police on hate crime alert over postBrexit vote racist incidents‟ (MailOnline),4 „Hate crime surge as racist abuse of foreigners in UK condemned‟(Financial Times),5 „Police call emergency meetings to deal with post-Brexit vote explosion of racist hate crime‟ (Daily Mirror).6 By the following Monday, June 27th, so many incidents had been reported that the prime minister, David Cameron, condemned the „despicable‟ rise in hate crime, specifically citing examples of verbal abuse hurled at ethnic minorities and racist graffiti left on the walls of a Polish cultural centre.7 The headlines all suggest a substantial rise in hate crimes in the aftermath of the result. The examples used in these reports were almost exclusively non-violent in nature, or were acts of vandalism.

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Posted (edited)

Thousands of foreign nationals in unseaworthy boats every year risk life and limb to get to this country. If we was a racist country they would be sailing their boats in the opposite for direction. 

 

 

Edited by cstand
Changed my opinion

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Will the vote that's taking place tomorrow, have any real affect on how and when brexit will come into fruition.

While our MEPs would be able to cause some disruption in the European parliament. It is still in the hands of politicians sat in Westminster that will decide the final outcome of brexit.

Are these election purely being used by the emerging parties as an exercise in gaining the support, of disgruntled voters, away from the main two parties. Then hoping they can carry that new found support through to the next general election, whenever it gets called.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

I'm not a guardian reader I just googled "fact check"  racism on the increase in the UK"

For balance there is also his report:

 

cut the rest of your post cos its a long one...

But in short what you've posted is the equivalent to 'Kick it Out' in football - a campaign is run to highlight and eradicate racism in football, people become more likely to report the problem as they are encouraged to call it out whenever they see/hear it.

- The Guardian prints that racism in the rise, white man is bad we should all be ashamed of our country.

- Everyone else just sees it as tackling what was already there (and lets be honest, its thankfully not the 1980s anymore)

Edited by maxjam

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Just now, ariotofmyown said:

All this Brexit stuff has gone too far! You were all asking for and now it has happened. Angela Leasdsom has resigned! Omg! 

Wake me up when its Theresa May.  Shouldn't be long 🤪

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Anyone remember when Angela Leadsom(?) stood for leader before and campaigned that she would be a better leader than May as she had children, unlike May who couldn't have kids! What a total Jeremy Hunt.

What will she campaign on this time?

"I'll be a better leader than Johnson as I have kids whereas he paid for his mistress to have an abortion."

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11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

cut the rest of your post cos its a long one...

But in short what you've posted is the equivalent to 'Kick it Out' in football - a campaign is run to highlight and eradicate racism in football, people become more likely to report the problem as they are encouraged to call it out whenever they see/hear it.

- The Guardian prints that racism in the rise, white man is bad we should all be ashamed of our country.

- Everyone else just sees it as tackling what was already there (and lets be honest, its thankfully not the 1980s anymore)

Is that such a bad thing?

I've got myself into fights by having a go at morons who spew racist bile in family enclosures. I've got into a fight with a bloke who was with his 5 year old son and abusing a black player for the opposition when we had 4 black players in our own side.

When I say I've got into fights what I actually mean is I stood up and told them to shut up, stop being idiots, asking them how they think Lucas Akins would feel if he heard what they said, and for gods sakes stop swearing like an idiot in front of kids.

Neither of them took it well and came to punch me. So yeah I got into a fight.

If it gets reported I assume it's because it happened. If it happens and someone has made it easier to report surely that is a huge step in the right direction.

If it doesn't happen it can't be reported. 

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1 hour ago, cstand said:

Have  you been drinking too many Belgian beers?  

That's a contradiction in terms.

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9 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Is that such a bad thing?

No of course not, but its how you present the data that pushes the agenda one way or another.

If it was happening before but it was going unreported, then suddenly there is a campaign that promotes the reporting of it the numbers are always going to go up - that doesn't mean that racism is on the rise however, its just more likely to be reported.

No one is saying that racism has gone away - its not and there is still a lot of work to do, but during my lifetime it has got significantly better.

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21 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Anyone remember when Angela Leadsom(?) stood for leader before and campaigned that she would be a better leader than May as she had children, unlike May who couldn't have kids! What a total Jeremy Hunt.

What will she campaign on this time?

"I'll be a better leader than Johnson as I have kids whereas he paid for his mistress to have an abortion."

Not for nothing is she known as "Angela Loathsome".

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On 21/05/2019 at 14:49, StivePesley said:

I think you're ashamed enough of our country for all of us Stive.

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Just now, maxjam said:

No of course not, but its how you present the data that pushes the agenda one way or another.

If it was happening before but it was going unreported, then suddenly there is a campaign that promotes the reporting of it the numbers are always going to go up - that doesn't mean that racism is on the rise however, its just more likely to be reported.

No one is saying that racism has gone away - its not and there is still a lot of work to do, but during my lifetime it has got significantly better.

I agree withis quite strongly, but only up to 2016. Since the referendum, some people I know have been far more forthright in expressing their views. So have I - and predictably that has caused friction between us to the point that I now go out of my way to avoid them and refuse to do business with them.

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3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

No of course not, but its how you present the data that pushes the agenda one way or another.

If it was happening before but it was going unreported, then suddenly there is a campaign that promotes the reporting of it the numbers are always going to go up - that doesn't mean that racism is on the rise however, its just more likely to be reported.

No one is saying that racism has gone away - its not and there is still a lot of work to do, but during my lifetime it has got significantly better.

I know what you're saying and we're not a million miles away from agreeing, I don't think.

If it wasn't reported before but was still happening all that means is they were getting away with it. Have we been massively under reporting in the past?

Something has to stop the buffoons from acting the way they do and thinking they can and will get away with it.

It will mean there is a spike before it falls once the neanderthals realise there are actual consequences for their stupid actions.

I'm not sure that's agenda driven. I personally think it's driven by a stronger desire than before to ensure everyone knows it's no longer (and never was) acceptable in any environment.

If someone wants to be a racist scum bag let them be a racist scumbag quietly behind their own front doors or in their own tiny minds. The thought police haven't been invented yet. If anyone has those thoughts let them keep it to themselves.

That's a white racist, a black racist, a mixed race racist or just a plain old racist racist. For me they're all as bad as each other and they all definitely do exist.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

If it wasn't reported before but was still happening all that means is they were getting away with it. Have we been massively under reporting in the past?

Of course people were getting away with it and it was massively unreported in the past - but that still doesn't mean it hasn't gotten significantly better.

If I can I'll compare racism to smoking.  Years ago the pubs would be full of it, the staff room would be full of it, you'd see people smoking all the time in the street - you could smell it all the time, everywhere.  Now I can smell smoke 20yds away in the park walking my dog, its still there but it sticks out like a sore thumb.

As a white bloke in a mostly white area I'll admit I'm not exposed to much racism but I have been a (live) football fan all my life, songs and chants were common place during my youth, racially abusing individual players was common place as I grew older.  Now I can't remember the last time I personally heard something offensive and if I did I wouldn't think it was normal like I used to, it would stick out like a sore thumb.

I talk to my kids a lot about racism and the education they receive at school about it is brilliant, they are both 'colour blind' when it comes to a persons skin colour and I think as the newer generations grow up we'll see the situation get a lot better.

There is a political correctness, social justice warrior, identity politics movement at the moment designed to blame and shame, my personal opinion is that it is responsible for the majority of any rise in tensions.  It is focussing on what makes us different and not what brings us together, it severely punishes anyone for even the slightest transgression and increases tensions amongst groups. 

I believe in celebrating the steps we've made and working together to continue to make the further strides, not focussing on the negative and being made to feel ashamed for what we are.

Edited by maxjam

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