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The Politics Thread 2019

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11 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

If you found distasteful, you must have been even more appalled than me by Johnson's comments on letterboxes, watermelon smiles, bum boys, single mothers etc etc etc

Don’t like gloating 

He has made mistakes in the past but so has Jeremy Corbyn 

 

Edited by Curtains

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Yesterday, whilst polls were saying that Labour were closing the gap, and many on here thought it was going to be tight, and some even hoping for a hung parliament......how many of you are from proper working class areas, with working class jobs?

Only ask, because it was obvious to me yesterday that everyone around me was voting Conservative, yet the polls and social media seemed to be saying otherwise. I actually got worried that my area was voting different to other working class areas.

There seemed to be a lot of shock from the media and politicians and Channel 4 audiences etc at the exit poll. I was surprised at some of the seats going to Conservatives from Labour. But a good portion of this country didn't see it coming. Just wondered what the perception is from other areas.

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45 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Don't believe I did, maybe you're confusing me with someone else. I've always said I think a revote is a mistake as I don't think anyone has convinced people remaining is the right answer and leave would still win.

My bad. Someone put it, thought it was you. @86 Schmokes & a Pancake will have me searching for it now, then calling me a pack of mince for not doing it 😂

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31 minutes ago, Highgate said:

You aren't for proportional representation then.  'London and the other big cities' is probably most of the population of the UK.  It's the same scenario in the US.  Each person's vote should be of equal value, it seems to me, regardless of whether they live in the city or the country.  The cities have more people so they should have more influence.  Isn't that the basis of democracy?

I think what you really are in favour of is some form of proportional representation based on hectares rather than human population. 

The current system is broken imo, did I read that only a small percentage (11?) of seats have actually changed parties in recent times?  If you vote for someone other than the winner in your constituency your vote is worthless.  You can argue for tactical voting, the Brexit Party picked up a lot of votes to kill Labour majorities in a lot of areas without actually winning a seat for example but if I'm gonna vote I want it to be for something I believe in not to stop something I don't.

Yes I've always advocated PR, your vote counts towards a total pool of votes rather than only counting if your constituent wins but after giving it further thought, this would be equally as bad.  Cities would dominate rural areas, the South would dominate the North so thats not fair either imo.  I don't really have any answers other than there are some good arguments for the Electoral College in the US and a similar principle would apply here.

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1 minute ago, Norman said:

Yesterday, whilst polls were saying that Labour were closing the gap, and many on here thought it was going to be tight, and some even hoping for a hung parliament......how many of you are from proper working class areas, with working class jobs?

Only ask, because it was obvious to me yesterday that everyone around me was voting Conservative, yet the polls and social media seemed to be saying otherwise. I actually got worried that my area was voting different to other working class areas.

There seemed to be a lot of shock from the media and politicians and Channel 4 audiences etc at the exit poll. I was surprised at some of the seats going to Conservatives from Labour. But a good portion of this country didn't see it coming. Just wondered what the perception is from other areas.

Really? I voted Labour in a safe seat in a metropolitan area, however the polling has consistently shown the Conservatives well ahead.

Anything negative has seemed to come out in the wash for Johnson and the Conservatives over the past couple of months. Labour seem to be seen carrying baggage from the last decade.

No brexit party candidates in tory seats neutralised any possible swing to Labour. 

No surprise for me, apart from perhaps the exact number of seats, whatsoever. 

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2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I've always advocated PR, your vote counts towards a total pool of votes rather than only counting if your constituent wins but after giving it further thought, this would be equally as bad.  Cities would dominate rural areas, the South would dominate the North so thats not fair either imo.  I don't really have any answers other than there are some good arguments for the Electoral College in the US and a similar principle would apply here.

But why is it unfair that the more populated areas dominate in a national democracy?

We are not Southern or Northern we are english/British. 

You are just making arguments for regional assemblies or more powers to local authorities. 

Edited by alexxxxx

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5 minutes ago, Norman said:

Yesterday, whilst polls were saying that Labour were closing the gap, and many on here thought it was going to be tight, and some even hoping for a hung parliament......how many of you are from proper working class areas, with working class jobs?

Only ask, because it was obvious to me yesterday that everyone around me was voting Conservative, yet the polls and social media seemed to be saying otherwise. I actually got worried that my area was voting different to other working class areas.

There seemed to be a lot of shock from the media and politicians and Channel 4 audiences etc at the exit poll. I was surprised at some of the seats going to Conservatives from Labour. But a good portion of this country didn't see it coming. Just wondered what the perception is from other areas.

Me, but the perception I had was that people who usually voted Conservative weren’t voting for them because of Johnson which I was hoping would prove to be a silent majority. Instead the silent majority voted for him.

Stupid silent majority, let us know what you think more!

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11 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

But why is it unfair that the more populated areas dominate in a national democracy?

We are not Southern or Northern we are english/British. 

You are just making arguments for regional assemblies or more powers to local authorities. 

Regardless of this GE and BREXIT, you can draw a line from the Bristol Channel to the Wash, and that is the true dividing line.

Everything below that starts to sound like Ricky Gervais accent-wise and is considerably better off. London thunders away as a world city.

As far as class divisions go, I think 'working class', 'middle class', etc  … the old structure is redundant.

Personally I think some subtle income/property owning classifications are more relevant now.

For example - 'Mortgage-Free + Double income' … or 'Private-Rent Slave', 'Final Salary pension and multiple property owner' - just some ideas.

Ideas about Britishness and Englishness can vary too.

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1 hour ago, Norman said:

You said it was 60/40 the other week. All those old people had died. The only bubble is social media. It's the most echoey echo chamber ever.

Now it seems to me it might be 55/45 towards Leave. Maybe more.

Where do you get your evidence from?

Repeated polling over the past two years indicates that remain usually has a narrow lead over leave.

When you take into account margins of error and the ‘don’t knows’ then the evidence suggests to me that the country is still roughly split down the middle as it always has been on this divisive issue.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

Edited by ramesses

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27 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

But why is it unfair that the more populated areas dominate in a national democracy?

We are not Southern or Northern we are english/British. 

You are just making arguments for regional assemblies or more powers to local authorities. 

Its a conundrum for sure.  

In America each state has a number of votes and they usually all go to the overall winning candidate, a couple of states however split who they give their vote to, half go to the popular vote winner, the rest are split between winning regional candidates.   I'm not saying its the answer, just that there are potentially other, fairer more modern ways of collecting the vote.

Edited by maxjam

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41 minutes ago, Norman said:

Yesterday, whilst polls were saying that Labour were closing the gap, and many on here thought it was going to be tight, and some even hoping for a hung parliament......how many of you are from proper working class areas, with working class jobs?

Only ask, because it was obvious to me yesterday that everyone around me was voting Conservative, yet the polls and social media seemed to be saying otherwise. I actually got worried that my area was voting different to other working class areas.

There seemed to be a lot of shock from the media and politicians and Channel 4 audiences etc at the exit poll. I was surprised at some of the seats going to Conservatives from Labour. But a good portion of this country didn't see it coming. Just wondered what the perception is from other areas.

I work with 40 odd blokes in what would have in the past been a typical labour industry. All but 1 voting conservative. Mostly down to Corbyn. The bloke is toxic 

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3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I can sort of see how you might change political allegiance as your life changes, your career, family etc. But fundamental identity politics - current Brexit supporters don't see themselves as European and the youth don't share that outlook.

I am odd perhaps (well ok there is no perhaps ) I desperately wanted to remain but 2 factors are involved here. First there was a majority for Brexit (yes it was Ill informed but you could argue that one one from a lot of angles) secondly the country has been paralysed for 3 years. So even if you didn’t want Brexit there comes a point where you stop digging.

There is some irony that Johnson who was originally a remainer and Corbyn along with a large chunk of the far left would have wanted to leave if they were honest about their core identity. 
 

in a sense both of them are guilty of looking for opportunities to have power, regardless - which is disappointing from those who want to lead us. 
 

Anyway at least we have a Government with a majority that can now legislate according to a coherent path whether we agree with it or not. 
 

There is going to be a lot of uncomfortable fun and games over the Irish border, from my perspective the only thing that is important is that Nationalists on either side of the Irish debate are kept in check and don’t revert to violence to further a pointless political goal that benefits no one except their own pettiness and a desire to fight old battles that should be confined to history as dark times which all sides have a deal of shame and guilt -  from Oliver Cromwell to the IRA.

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15 minutes ago, timmo said:

I work with 40 odd blokes in what would have in the past been a typical labour industry. All but 1 voting conservative. Mostly down to Corbyn. The bloke is toxic 

What in particular do you think makes him toxic?

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3 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not necessarily true. The vast majority of voters that Labour lost in this election have pinned their hopes on Brexit being the thing that turns their society around. 

If that turns out to be true, then you're right. Labour will remain in opposition for years

If it turns out to be a disaster then those voters will come back pretty damn quick

Yeah sorry - didn't explain it very well - all I'm really asking is,  will they hold their hands up and admit that they got it wrong. That Brexit was not the answer to their problems.

Stiv, don’t you think though the Brexit issue has 2 facets. Those that wanted it - and for differing reasons, then there are those who thought we had been in limbo for too long and it was damaging the country regardless of who was in power. There are I suspect a lot of remain voters who opted for the conservatives And Brexit  because they didn’t want another 3 or 4 years of being in nowhere land which would have been the alternative, more parliamentary bickering, more going back to the EU, more going back to parliament after we’d gone back to the EU and then a referendum which Parliament or some Parliamentarians could chose to argue with. 
 

personally I am sad we will leave, but the majority has spoken ... twice 

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8 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Lets have a good old fashioned civil war.

Well I am with the Cavaliers .. Roundheads would have been Warnock / Rowett / McCarthy and there’d be warts, lots of them. 

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1 minute ago, jono said:

Stiv, don’t you think though the Brexit issue has 2 facets. Those that wanted it - and for differing reasons, then there are those who thought we had been in limbo for too long and it was damaging the country regardless of who was in power. There are I suspect a lot of remain voters who opted for the conservatives And Brexit  because they didn’t want another 3 or 4 years of being in nowhere land which would have been the alternative, more parliamentary bickering, more going back to the EU, more going back to parliament after we’d gone back to the EU and then a referendum which Parliament or some Parliamentarians could chose to argue with.

Maybe - although you're the only remainer I know who is admitting they thought that before the result last night. I guess a lot (like me) are coming to terms with that being the only positve to take right now.

25 minutes ago, jono said:

There is going to be a lot of uncomfortable fun and games over the Irish border, from my perspective the only thing that is important is that Nationalists on either side of the Irish debate are kept in check and don’t revert to violence

Agreed

Did I hear right (I may have not been concentrating) but was there a suggestion from the SNP/Stugeron that they would go ahead with IndyRef2 even if the government refused to sanction it? Could get a bit tasty north of the border too if they go into Catalan style illegal referendum territory

 

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