Stive Pesley Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said: They can expect to be in opposition for a along time now. No way they'll claw back a 80+ seat majority in one election. Not necessarily true. The vast majority of voters that Labour lost in this election have pinned their hopes on Brexit being the thing that turns their society around. If that turns out to be true, then you're right. Labour will remain in opposition for years If it turns out to be a disaster then those voters will come back pretty damn quick 17 minutes ago, Paul71 said: Not sure thats even a question I feel comfortable being asked. Maybe it wont work out, but people vote with the best intentions.. When we start pointing fingers and stating people have to take responsibility its dangerous, can easily lead to the sort of hate that was being posted yesterday. What sort of responsibility do you want people to take? Yeah sorry - didn't explain it very well - all I'm really asking is, will they hold their hands up and admit that they got it wrong. That Brexit was not the answer to their problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, alexxxxx said: What a strange argument. So you feel that regional seats should somehow be worth more than cities for no real reason? The reason why London has so many seats is because 9million people live there. Nearly double of the whole of the East Midlands. 3 minutes ago, SaintRam said: The popular vote should be what determines the president, in my opinion. The person more of the people want; not the person more of the areas want. Areas have their own governance. I disagree with both of you on that tbh. Whilst I agree that everyones vote should count, cities have very different demands and requirements to more rural areas. Haven't got time to expand upon my arguments now so am linking the top google search; https://www.thoughtco.com/why-keep-the-electoral-college-3322050 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB SPORTS Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Paul71 said: Yes very much so. You will always have those on either side who will vote for 'their' party regardless. Corbyn could have put in his manifesto that he would boil 1000 kittens alive every day and some labour voters would still vote for him, and vice versa with the tories i guess. Yes true, Also I know quite a few Staunch Labour Voters who voted leave,who didn't vote or spoiled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said: this worries me labour don’t realise it wasn’t the papers that lost the election it was their stance .... or criminal lack of over brexit I agree - and I said this a couple of pages back. Several posters told me I was wrong and that it was more than just Brexit (despite the fact that the only ostensible change between 2017 and 2019 was the party's Brexit stance). I suspect you won't get the same telling off ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Since Johnson took over everyone was talking about how many votes in Parliament he lost. I don’t think this bothered him one bit. I think it was gaining him support and votes every time he lost. He then hit the button after a bit of negotiations with the EU. By that time people just want out and although Labour tried to concentrate on the NHS it was the Brexit stalemate that everyone remembered. The Labour option lost them both remain votes and leave votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB SPORTS Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Not necessarily true. The vast majority of voters that Labour lost in this election have pinned their hopes on Brexit being the thing that turns their society around. If that turns out to be true, then you're right. Labour will remain in opposition for years If it turns out to be a disaster then those voters will come back pretty damn quick Yeah sorry - didn't explain it very well - all I'm really asking is, will they hold their hands up and admit that they got it wrong. That Brexit was not the answer to their problems. Schtive don't make the mistake of most remainers (which I voted for) people voted leave because the perception that their lives have always been poo. Regardless of the colour of No10. It is not a big leap when 1 side promises you what you have denied for three years + and the other side cant make their mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: Break politics in what way? I think it may already be pretty broken! A generation of people would have been left thinking that their vote counted for nothing if the politicians didnt agree with it. You're right of course, British politics is on its knees but that could well have been the final nail in the coffin. If anything good is to come of this situation I hope it is a complete overhaul of the British political system and how it is regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, WHAT DO I GET said: Schtive don't make the mistake of most remainers (which I voted for) people voted leave because the perception that their lives have always been poo. Regardless of the colour of No10. It is not a big leap when 1 side promises you what you have denied for three years + and the other side cant make their mind up. It wasn't just a case of making their minds up. The second referendum would be a gerrymandered affair of remain vs SM/CU alignment worse remain. No real leave option available. Then throw in extending the franchise to include children and foreigners..? It would be a complete fix. And why should leave win twice but remain once? Thankfully that has been completely buried by the electorate. Question now is will Johnson pursue a softer Brexit given he isn;'t as incumbent on votes from the likes of the ERG and DUP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, maxjam said: I disagree with both of you on that tbh. Whilst I agree that everyones vote should count, cities have very different demands and requirements to more rural areas. Haven't got time to expand upon my arguments now so am linking the top google search; https://www.thoughtco.com/why-keep-the-electoral-college-3322050 Which is why they vote for their own representatives who have plenty of power to meet the unique demands of each area. But it is an interesting debate. I've read that link before - its interesting to say that the smallest states would be ignored, and candidates wouldn't even show up; because according to many (across the political spectrum) in those smallest states all that happens now is that candidates show up and lie to them. Because they aren't afraid of the backlash of lying to them. This causes those smaller states to put far more care into the election of their lower level government officials (which they would do if the electoral college didn't exist) who are often given more leash to make big changes than others as presidents tend to not pay them as much attention. Meanwhile the more local level officials in highly populated coastal regions are basically just faces that do little. See, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexxxxx Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, maxjam said: I disagree with both of you on that tbh. Whilst I agree that everyones vote should count, cities have very different demands and requirements to more rural areas. Haven't got time to expand upon my arguments now so am linking the top google search; https://www.thoughtco.com/why-keep-the-electoral-college-3322050 Absolute garbage reasons if I'm polite. And mostly not relevant to UK politics as there the US government structure is different due to the power that states have to legislate on many things than the UK national government does. The current system just leaves constituency boundaries open to gerrymandering and doesn't deliver a fair result. Big cities are where many, many people live. The fact that less dense, regional areas have different issues that they vote on doesn't make the issues that I vote on any less relevant. Nor are they of different importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 How can the pollsters be so wrong The result is remarkable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: A generation of people would have been left thinking that their vote counted for nothing if the politicians didnt agree with it. You're right of course, British politics is on its knees but that could well have been the final nail in the coffin. If anything good is to come of this situation I hope it is a complete overhaul of the British political system and how it is regulated. And you said we never agreed on anything! I hope for the same thing What we need to watch out for though is that the excruciating impasse of the past couple of years doesn't lead us to change so far the other way that things get totalitarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said: Question now is will Johnson pursue a softer Brexit given he isn;'t as incumbent on votes from the likes of the ERG and DUP. My gut feeling would be yes - because now he finally has a majority, I can't believe he would want to deal with the economic shock of a hard brexit. He has enough to worry about maintaining the union, sorting out the NI border issue and delivering the promised social change to the deprived northern areas that voted for him. He now has the luxury of delivering whatever Brexit he feels like. Farage and the ERG can slate it all they like as "not Brexity enough" and it doesn't actually matter any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 There’s been some fabulous hot takes on the left.... but I think this is my favourite JeReMy HaS bEeN PrOvEd RiGhT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Thinking of traditional Labour voters who switched to other parties. Some people couldn't support Labour because they believed Labour wouldn't or couldn't deliver Brexit. Some people couldn't support Labour because they perceive (rightly or wrongly) Corbyn is unelectable based on his popularity/Marxistness/failure to address antisemitism/looks like an old man/isn't a "leader" figure Some people couldn't support Labour because they believe the policies will cost them money I don't see many other reasons people voted, but what proportion the breakdown fell in. I think it was mostly the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mafiabob said: There’s been some fabulous hot takes on the left.... but I think this is my favourite JeReMy HaS bEeN PrOvEd RiGhT She’s kinda right though the remainers have scattergunned their approach since the referendum. It’s revoke, it’s peoples vote, it’s being ‘politically homeless’, it’s The Independent Group for Change, it’s voting Lib Dem last night because they’d rather spit their dummy out. Rather than getting behind a party leader who at least tried to not stand on either side of the debate. Obviously Corbyn did similar and tried to fudge it but it wasn’t helped by the pressure of the Remain argument. They need to stand and understand how the Leave vote worked and get these people back on the side pretty quickly. The problem is the left (this tweet included by the way, I’m not saying this is right and everything else is wrong) is that they are pointing fingers everywhere else and not at themselves or their little niche no matter what part of the spectrum that includes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Thinking of traditional Labour voters who switched to other parties. Some people couldn't support Labour because they believed Labour wouldn't or couldn't deliver Brexit. Some people couldn't support Labour because they perceive (rightly or wrongly) Corbyn is unelectable based on his popularity/Marxistness/failure to address antisemitism/looks like an old man/isn't a "leader" figure Some people couldn't support Labour because they believe the policies will cost them money I don't see many other reasons people voted, but what proportion the breakdown fell in. I think it was mostly the first. I think the Brexit party had a big effect in leave areas even though they didn’t win any seats taking votes off Labour and allowing the Tory vote to prosper in places like Grimsby etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Thinking of traditional Labour voters who switched to other parties. Some people couldn't support Labour because they believed Labour wouldn't or couldn't deliver Brexit. Some people couldn't support Labour because they perceive (rightly or wrongly) Corbyn is unelectable based on his popularity/Marxistness/failure to address antisemitism/looks like an old man/isn't a "leader" figure Some people couldn't support Labour because they believe the policies will cost them money I don't see many other reasons people voted, but what proportion the breakdown fell in. I think it was mostly the first. Could it have been more that the Conservatives put a plan in place and called the election. The people felt frustrated and blamed the opposition for blocking Brexit. I even think the loons outside Parliament with the pro EU banners had a hand. A lot of people have just said ‘ we had a vote to leave the EU. Take notice of the result.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Van Gritters said: Could it have been more that the Conservatives put a plan in place and called the election. Not for why traditional labour supporters changed allegiance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gritstone Ram Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, GboroRam said: Not for why traditional labour supporters changed allegiance. The ones I know saw them as voting against Brexit and they blamed Corbyn for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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