The Politics Thread 2019

[AdamRam]

4 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I think Corbyn misread what the public wanted. He saw a potential shift in public feeling towards leaving and thought simply it would be a vote winner.

I am a bit surprised that the reported support from the younger generation didn't seem to materialize, i guess we will see when more indepth statistics come out.

Will be interesting, they appear to be putting all the failings on this election on their Brexit policy and leader. I heard a few comments this morning that they believed it was the best manifesto they had ever produced, I’m not so sure.

[SaintRam]

29 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Probably because the leftie social media bubble isn't as all inclusive as they like to think, its just an echo chamber for a small number of people to whip themselves up into a frenzy. 

Found this chart last night, its not meant to be accurate just helps explain my point. 

I know you've pointed out its not meant to be accurate; but that same point can be made with a small increase in accuracy.

The "People who use Twitter" circle should be bigger than the "People who voted Conservative" circle. 16m v 14m.

[Sith Happens]

9 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

 The youth of today are massively pro EU, so it's only time before they get to push forward and re-join.

Time will tell, people do change their views as they get older, interact with different people, work, have homes, families.

How many of us can claim to be the same person, with the same views, as we were 10 or 20 years ago?

 

[TigerTedd]

33 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Probably because the leftie social media bubble isn't as all inclusive as they like to think, its just an echo chamber for a small number of people to whip themselves up into a frenzy. 

Found this chart last night, its not meant to be accurate just helps explain my point. 

I just posted this on Facebook, which seems to have gone down well and be relevant:

It’s funny how you can see your friends on your Facebook feed and it looks like, from your perspective, the world is overwhelmingly leaning in a certain direction. 

But the result from last night was such a landslide, that it clearly shows that the vast majority of the country does not look like my Facebook feed. 

I can live with that. Democracy at work. Clearly I’m in the minority. Doesn’t mean I’m wrong, but I am in the minority. Doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong either. Life goes on either way.

Imagine we’re going to a destination, doesn’t really matter where the destination is, let’s just say it’s a better world. There’s two options for the route. You can’t actually know if there is traffic on either route until you get there. Some vote for one route, a lot vote for another. So I’m hopeful that the majority turn out to be right about where the traffic really is. And if they’re wrong, we can go again in 5 years. 

I’m just glad, either way, that’s it’s such an overwhelming majority, hopefully that means there’s an indication that, one way or another, there is less division in the country, and we can all move forward. At least we’re on the road now, let’s see where it takes us.

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

Time will tell, people do change their views as they get older, interact with different people, work, have homes, families.

How many of us can claim to be the same person, with the same views, as we were 10 or 20 years ago?

 

I can sort of see how you might change political allegiance as your life changes, your career, family etc. But fundamental identity politics - current Brexit supporters don't see themselves as European and the youth don't share that outlook.

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

I’m just glad, either way, that’s it’s such an overwhelming majority, hopefully that means there’s an indication that, one way or another, there is less division in the country, and we can all move forward. At least we’re on the road now, let’s see where it takes us.

I'm sort of in the same boat. I never thought Brexit was the big issue that it seems to have turned out, but I'm convinced the route of no deal is a stupid and damaging one. But we've given control to Boris, and if he goes for it, we get what we deserve. I'm accepting whatever happens, but don't expect me to say nothing if it turns out to be a disaster.

My main concern is, if it's a disaster, who will Boris pin the blame on?

[Stive Pesley]

14 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm all for a fairer system of voting, one in which each vote counts but if we adopted a simple PR system the country would be held to the whims of London and other big cities

Agreed - so many conundrums still to work out. The argument seems to lead towards greater devolution to regions. Scotland is already a massive problem, Wales and Northern Ireland are on their way to the same conclusion.

Fundamentally the same argument as the one to leave the EU. "why should we be governed by people who don't hear our voice"

Where does it end? An independent Derbyshire?

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, GboroRam said:

My main concern is, if it's a disaster, who will Boris pin the blame on?

And in that same situation - will the people who voted for it because they wanted to "get Brexit done" take any responsibility for their actions?

[maxjam]

7 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

I know you've pointed out its not meant to be accurate; but that same point can be made with a small increase in accuracy.

The "People who use Twitter" circle should be bigger than the "People who voted Conservative" circle. 16m v 14m.

True, but thats the total that use twitter how many of those concern themselves with politics?

I'm not a big twitter user, I only really look at it when something kicks off and I've never posted a comment but I was checking what was trending several times per day in the run up to the election, as a rough guess I'd say it was a minimum 80%+ pro labour/negative tory.  If thats the bubble you live in or draw your world view from its no surprise that you can't see how far left Corbyns Labour or the Democrats in the US have shifted.

There's a big world outside of social media and its largely moderate...

[King Kevin]

Just now, King Kevin said:

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I can sort of see how you might change political allegiance as your life changes, your career, family etc. But fundamental identity politics - current Brexit supporters don't see themselves as European and the youth don't share that outlook.

That's what remainers and pro EU people don't get I like Europe happy to be part of a trading block [which is what it was originally] I don't want to be ruled by an undemocratic , organisation that can't get it's accounts signed off.

[Sith Happens]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

And in that same situation - will the people who voted for it because they wanted to "get Brexit done" take any responsibility for their actions?

Not sure thats even a question I feel comfortable being asked. Maybe it wont work out, but people vote with the best intentions..

When we start pointing fingers and stating people have to take responsibility its dangerous, can easily lead to the sort of hate that was being posted yesterday. What sort of responsibility do you want people to take?

 

[alexxxxx]

34 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Isn't that the root of problem though, 25% of Labour seats are in London whereas the majority of the rest of the country wants to leave the EU. 

The Brexit referendum may have been a close 52-48 but iirc something like 450/600 constituencies voted to leave.

I'm all for a fairer system of voting, one in which each vote counts but if we adopted a simple PR system the country would be held to the whims of London and other big cities.  Similar applies in the US, Trump lost the popular vote but won via the electoral college - if they drop that 80% of the country is ignored and politics is dominated by the coasts. 

What a strange argument. So you feel that regional seats should somehow be worth more than cities for no real reason? 

The reason why London has so many seats is because 9million people live there. Nearly double of the whole of the East Midlands. 

Labour got 31% of the seats with 32% of the popular vote this election, about right overall. 

Conservatives had 44% of the vote and 56% of the seats. 

My London constituency is a huge labour majority so my vote doesn't matter one jot. 

[SaintRam]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

True, but thats the total that use twitter how many of those concern themselves with politics?

I'm not a big twitter user, I only really look at it when something kicks off and I've never posted a comment but I was checking what was trending several times per day in the run up to the election, as a rough guess I'd say it was a minimum 80%+ pro labour/negative tory.  If thats the bubble you live in or draw your world view from its no surprise that you can't see how far left Corbyns Labour or the Democrats in the US have shifted.

There's a big world outside of social media and its largely moderate...

For sure, the overlap you show in your Venn Diagram would probably remain similar; just the size of twitter's circle would increase. Although I think your 80% is probably overblown. Of late, political twitter trends generally develop in rebellion against media narrative - the media was mostly talking the Cons up (rightly, based on the vote) and when people agree with the media they're more likely just to press "like" (or nod at the screen) than they are to create twitter posts with positive Tory hashtags.

Also just want to say the Democrats seem to be moving back towards the centre; but with their system picking their nominee is the most important process. I've far more social connection to US politics than UK ones.

[NottsRam77]

40 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I dont think i would have voted for anyone who was going to introduce another round of delays.

 

But what if they had gone down the remain route as in were staying in Europe 

I’m only asking u as a remain voter out of interest 

[Red_Dawn]

The public treated yesterday as another proxy second referendum.

Labour decided to poo on their key voting demographic for the past three years, in preference for far left remainers in metropolitan areas. 

Throw the utterly toxic Corbyn and his dreadful cabinet, what did they expect to happen? 

They can expect to be in opposition for a along time now. No way they'll claw back a 80+ seat majority in one election. 

 

[maxjam]

11 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Agreed - so many conundrums still to work out. The argument seems to lead towards greater devolution to regions. Scotland is already a massive problem, Wales and Northern Ireland are on their way to the same conclusion.

Fundamentally the same argument as the one to leave the EU. "why should we be governed by people who don't hear our voice"

Where does it end? An independent Derbyshire?

I honestly don't know.  Once upon a time we used to vote for our local MP, send him off to London on a horse and cart and never see him again.

The world has changed, the country has changed but our political systems haven't.  There are now more people living in London than used to live in the entire country (maybe a slight exaggeration but you get my point!)  Whilst I believe that every vote should count, countries can't be held to ransom by large cities.

If the two main parties weren't so obsessed with power maybe we could discuss changes to our system, but whilst its suits them this is all we'll ever have ?

[TuffLuff]

25 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Question for the Labour disillusioned here: what do you want to see for a future for the Labour Party?

A party prepared to invest to drive growth in the form similar to the last manifesto which crashed with the electorate? Or a party similar to the divisive one of Blair, softer than the Tories with regards to public services and spending, but not at all radical? No increased taxes, move it around a little bit, encourage more private investment in public services.

I think there's a queue of people like Kier Starmer who will be gagging to get a chance to lead the party back to the 90s, but hundreds of thousands of new members wanting a distinct choice from the blue and yellow options already on display.

I struggle to see the need for a centrist Labour. What separates them from the Lib Dems?

Corbyn does deserve credit for changing the debate (that maybe seems an odd statement, but the issue isn’t really policy it’s more he shouldn’t have run a second general election). The opportunity is now there to build a real alternative that unites the whole left which is doable but they need to take back the votes from The Lib Dems (who ran a really cynical campaign that benefitted nobody), The Greens plus  The Brexit Party (a party Farage used to get what he wants, this will soon be realised once the US trade deal begins) and waivering Tory voters. I don’t think you do that by winning the centre ground but by progressive modern politics.
 

The Conservatives have got power by giving Leavers one option, Labour has to do the same. I was waiting to say this until after the election but I also believe there’s a lot of Conservative Remainers who don’t like Johnson, if you give them a credible alternative (without pandering to them) you will being a lot onto the other side. 

[NottsRam77]

40 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

If? You just described Corbyn. The notion that his agenda was "far left" has been pushed on you by the right wing newspapers. Not that you'll admit it

It's no different to the policies of the social democratic scandinavian countries and no one calls them "far left". 

One thing we've not mentioned as a factor in the Labour defeat is that we've had another 2 years of relentless character assassination and smears from the right wing press. It's now just so ingrained in people's psyche that he's a far left, terrorist sympathiser, anti-semitic, threat to national security that he stood no chance.

I suspect the replies to this comment will tell me I'm wrong whilst simultaneously proving me right haha

Perhaps ur right

i just watched the bbc interviewing a labour mp and he was blaming the public smearing of corbyn 

this worries me labour don’t realise it wasn’t the papers that lost the election it was their stance .... or criminal lack of over brexit 

they were warned about it and decided to ignore it 

these guys are meant to be intelligent well educated men and woman and they turned their back on the biggest political elephant in the room and paid a very heavy price 

with that sort of political Naivety even as a labour voter a Very very small part of me is glad they took a hiding as it’s clear the current leadership has his head in the clouds 

[SaintRam]

32 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Isn't that the root of problem though, 25% of Labour seats are in London whereas the majority of the rest of the country wants to leave the EU. 

The Brexit referendum may have been a close 52-48 but iirc something like 450/600 constituencies voted to leave.

I'm all for a fairer system of voting, one in which each vote counts but if we adopted a simple PR system the country would be held to the whims of London and other big cities.  Similar applies in the US, Trump lost the popular vote but won via the electoral college - if they drop that 80% of the country is ignored and politics is dominated by the coasts. 

The US system is very different. Here, the vote for your local representative is a vote for their party leader. In the US they vote for their local representative separately to their president, and they've more power than our local officials - notably the fact each state has its own laws outside of federal ones.

The popular vote should be what determines the president, in my opinion. The person more of the people want; not the person more of the areas want. Areas have their own governance. 

 

[maxjam]

7 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

For sure, the overlap you show in your Venn Diagram would probably remain similar; just the size of twitter's circle would increase. Although I think your 80% is probably overblown. Of late, political twitter trends generally develop in rebellion against media narrative - the media was mostly talking the Cons up (rightly, based on the vote) and when people agree with the media they're more likely just to press "like" (or nod at the screen) than they are to create twitter posts with positive Tory hashtags.

The 80% is just my own personal findings, we'll probably get some detailed info in the future.  I've posted US articles in the past about social media being skewed to the left andnd the left largely remaining in their bubble whlst the right are far more likely to research articles from a wider range of sources.  Interesting stuff.

 

9 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Also just want to say the Democrats seem to be moving back towards the centre; but with their system picking their nominee is the most important process. I've far more social connection to US politics than UK ones.

US politics is far more interesting than UK politics - or at least it has been recently with Trump over there and us going round in circles over Brexit. The run up to the 2020 election will be fascinating for the neutral in a kinda geeky way lol.  

And to think prior to the referendum I barely took an interest in politics outside of election time!