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The Politics Thread 2019


David

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6 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

Tony Blair said you will never win an election from the left ..... how right he was.

Question for the Labour disillusioned here: what do you want to see for a future for the Labour Party?

A party prepared to invest to drive growth in the form similar to the last manifesto which crashed with the electorate? Or a party similar to the divisive one of Blair, softer than the Tories with regards to public services and spending, but not at all radical? No increased taxes, move it around a little bit, encourage more private investment in public services.

I think there's a queue of people like Kier Starmer who will be gagging to get a chance to lead the party back to the 90s, but hundreds of thousands of new members wanting a distinct choice from the blue and yellow options already on display.

I struggle to see the need for a centrist Labour. What separates them from the Lib Dems?

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Time to move on, Corbyn has to go (sooner rather than later) and Boris has to actually stop lying and deliver on his promises now that the public have inexplicably handed him their trust!

A few things to ponder, as the dust settles

1) Labour's result is interesting - given that they have the same leader and largely the same set of policies as 2017, what changed to see it drop so badly?

2) When you look at the vote spread in the Tory gains - any remainers who didn't vote tactically have no right to complain today. Derby North as an example - the non-Tory/Brexit votes together would have easily beaten the Tory.

3) Given that the national vote share of Tory/Brexit party votes stands at 47% - is that an indicator of where a second referendum would have gone? What voice is there now for the 53% of voters who voted for parties  promising a second ref?

 

 

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There’s still left wing commentators that won’t accept the main reason why Labour got battered..... own it, take responsibility, you’ve lost working class folk..... you’ve put all your efforts into being woke and angry.

Also Brexit, we’ve now had a referendum to leave, a Brexit Party that won the European Elections, and now the biggest

Conservative Majority government since 1987 with the campaign to “Get Brexit Done”

Do you think now who want to stop or have another referendum now get the picture? The public want to leave.

One thing you don’t do is insult the general public, don’t tell them how to think and what they can and can’t have

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7 hours ago, Norman said:

My main point, which is being missed, which is probably my fault for bad wording, is that now people have voted Conservative, and people speak openly about voting Conservative in these areas, the taboo is gone. 

And once it is gone, it is gone. Which means all future elections will be more difficult for Labour. 

I know what you are saying and I agree. But only if nothing bad happens as a result of them breaking taboo and voting Tory

If they voted Tory and things get better or even if nothing changes - then the spell is broken.

If the warnings of their community against why you should never vote Tory turn out to be demonstrably true - and they get utterly shafted, then they will never vote Tory again

Kind of like a Beware of the Dog sign - they've now gone through the garden gate and are sat on the lawn waiting to see if it bites them

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5 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

There’s still left wing commentators that won’t accept the main reason why Labour got battered..... own it, take responsibility, you’ve lost working class folk

This is true. But hard to see what the alternative was. Being full Remain wasn't an option (look how it turned out for the LibDems), but then nor would being full Leave -they'd have lost just as many seats. The neutral stance was the gamble and it failed. 

7 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Also Brexit, we’ve now had a referendum to leave, a Brexit Party that won the European Elections, and now the biggest Conservative Majority government since 1987 with the campaign to “Get Brexit Done”

Do you think now who want to stop or have another referendum now get the picture? The public want to leave.

Except see above - only 47% of the vote share was for pro-Leave parties in the end. That's the problem - we're still in a position where half the public don't want to leave

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11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Question for the Labour disillusioned here: what do you want to see for a future for the Labour Party?

A party prepared to invest to drive growth in the form similar to the last manifesto which crashed with the electorate? Or a party similar to the divisive one of Blair, softer than the Tories with regards to public services and spending, but not at all radical? No increased taxes, move it around a little bit, encourage more private investment in public services.

I think there's a queue of people like Kier Starmer who will be gagging to get a chance to lead the party back to the 90s, but hundreds of thousands of new members wanting a distinct choice from the blue and yellow options already on display.

I struggle to see the need for a centrist Labour. What separates them from the Lib Dems?

Looking at the last paragraph now..... The Conservatives now have a choice either or to move more central or more right wing with the majority they have......
 

Tony Blair the last person in 45 years to win a election for Labour..... from the centre...... 

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3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This is true. But hard to see what the alternative was. Being full Remain wasn't an option (look how it turned out for the LibDems), but then nor would being full Leave -they'd have lost just as many seats. The neutral stance was the gamble and it failed. 

Except see above - only 47% of the vote share was for pro-Leave parties in the end. That's the problem - we're still in a position where half the public don't want to leave

Yes but how many of People who still voted Labour would still have voted leave? 

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The results are what matter...... people want it to be over...... we’ve voted as I’ve stated above..... yes the system could do with reforming in terms of voting. Look at the upsurge in Tory support across the country.... 

FA7B12B7-6CAE-4672-891D-61DFEAC0FF9E.png

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6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This is true. But hard to see what the alternative was. Being full Remain wasn't an option (look how it turned out for the LibDems), but then nor would being full Leave -they'd have lost just as many seats. The neutral stance was the gamble and it failed. 

Except see above - only 47% of the vote share was for pro-Leave parties in the end. That's the problem - we're still in a position where half the public don't want to leave

Apologies I’ve posted again and forgot to quote you 

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2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

 

Except see above - only 47% of the vote share was for pro-Leave parties in the end. That's the problem - we're still in a position where half the public don't want to leave

I get your point on this, but its been the same since the referendum in the first place, pretty much half the country wanted to leave, half didn't.

What is the answer, do we need to learn lessons in future and insist any vote has a significant majority 60/40 etc. Is that un-democratic though?

Same could well apply if Scotland get their second referendum, despite the polls yesterday opinion has been in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK. But if they do vote and its 51/49 you could argue the same.

Dont know what the answer is here.

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12 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Question for the Labour disillusioned here: what do you want to see for a future for the Labour Party?

A party prepared to invest to drive growth in the form similar to the last manifesto which crashed with the electorate? Or a party similar to the divisive one of Blair, softer than the Tories with regards to public services and spending, but not at all radical? No increased taxes, move it around a little bit, encourage more private investment in public services.

I think there's a queue of people like Kier Starmer who will be gagging to get a chance to lead the party back to the 90s, but hundreds of thousands of new members wanting a distinct choice from the blue and yellow options already on display.

I struggle to see the need for a centrist Labour. What separates them from the Lib Dems?

I think we have to wait for the Brexit mists to clear.

If Brexit turns out to be the land of milk and honey that we're promised then no one will really care about how radical the changes suggested by the opposition are, and a centrist Labour party will succeed or fail based on how personable their new leader is

If Brexit tuns out to be a disaster, a transformative agenda from the left will be far more attractive.

FWIW i don't think the Labour defeat today was anything to do with the manifesto

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2 minutes ago, WHAT DO I GET said:

Yes but how many of People who still voted Labour would still have voted leave? 

Yes very much so. You will always have those on either side who will vote for 'their' party regardless. Corbyn could have put in his manifesto that he would boil 1000 kittens alive every day and some labour voters would still vote for him, and vice versa with the tories i guess.

 

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7 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Except see above - only 47% of the vote share was for pro-Leave parties in the end. That's the problem - we're still in a position where half the public don't want to leave

You've jumped to the conclusion that everyone who voted Labour wanted to remain... I feel confident in at least 3% of Labour's share wanting to leave

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1 minute ago, Paul71 said:

I get your point on this, but its been the same since the referendum in the first place, pretty much half the country wanted to leave, half didn't.

What is the answer, do we need to learn lessons in future and insist any vote has a significant majority 60/40 etc. Is that un-democratic though?

Same could well apply if Scotland get their second referendum, despite the polls yesterday opinion has been in favour of Scotland remaining part of the UK. But if they do vote and its 51/49 you could argue the same.

Dont know what the answer is here.

Me neither

It's just all a bit puzzling because we're looking at it as a General Election - when in fact it was to all intents and purposes, a proxy second referendum, except done under General Election FPTP rules.

The Tories won because northern Labour leave voters lent them a vote to "get Brexit done". I don't think any of them voted Tory because they like whatever was in the Tory manifesto

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2 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

The results are what matter...... people want it to be over...... we’ve voted as I’ve stated above..... yes the system could do with reforming in terms of voting. Look at the upsurge in Tory support across the country.... 

FA7B12B7-6CAE-4672-891D-61DFEAC0FF9E.png

That's not necessarily true though in a lot of seats Labour voters didn't vote for the Conservatives they voted for the Brexit Party which then allowed the Tory candidate to overturn the labour majority in that constituency without significantly increasing their number of votes.

Nigel Farage has had a huge say in this result even though he openly admitted that he had spoiled his own ballot paper rather than vote for the Tory candidate in his constituency

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Just now, Tyler Durden said:

Nigel Farage has had a huge say in this result even though he openly admitted that he had spoiled his own ballot paper rather than vote for the Tory candidate in his constituency

What's his plan now I wonder. I saw him briefly on TV saying that if the Tories got a majority and tried to pass the Withdrawal Agreement as it stands that he would be totally against that?! A shame he (yet again) has zero MPs

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Just now, SchtivePesley said:

Me neither

It's just all a bit puzzling because we're looking at it as a General Election - when in fact it was to all intents and purposes, a proxy second referendum, except done under General Election FPTP rules.

The Tories won because northern Labour leave voters lent them a vote to "get Brexit done". I don't think any of them voted Tory because they like whatever was in the Tory manifesto

Even if thats true, which is speculation, perhaps they didn't like what was in the labour manifesto, perhaps those that voted leave felt the threat of a second referendum was too much to risk.

Perhaps JC should have understood his supporters before making those promises.

Maybe people just dont want Labour in its current guise, its been decades since a true labour government won an election (assuming we exclude Blairs as many labour supporters tell us we must), so while the brexit will have had an impact perhaps labour needs to look at how it puts itself back on the map in those places its fallen out of favour.

I cannot believe this labour loss was down to one single issue.

 

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17 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This is true. But hard to see what the alternative was. Being full Remain wasn't an option (look how it turned out for the LibDems), but then nor would being full Leave -they'd have lost just as many seats. The neutral stance was the gamble and it failed. 

A gamble? It was political suicide and a complete failure to gauge public opinion.

People are sick of 'dither and delay'.

He simply had to jump one way or another.

Another Referendum would break politics for a generation in my opinion.

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