The Politics Thread 2019

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So you're not othered that the money was stolen but you are bothered about the accounting processes for the repayal. What a surprise!

Technically, and pedantically, because we do not have a funded state pension system no money was actually removed. Instead a previously understood future commitment was simply rubbed out and the debt de-recognised. 

Bit of accounting trickery....

[maxjam]

36 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

The problem here is that reproduction is an inbuilt survival mechanism for all species. You can't stop people's natural urges to reproduce. China managed it? Well sort of - via a totalitarian government. I guess there is no other way, not enough people will stop of their own accord*. But I wouldn't have thought you'd be advocating state-control of population? You know what that entails I'm sure.

*interestingly during the China single child era there was a massive boom in black market fertility drugs as you were allowed to keep twins/triplets. The number of people having twins doubled.

Thats not what is happening though, if you take immigration and immigrants out of the equation the population of western civilizations has started to fall naturally now.  

https://www.euronews.com/2019/06/18/watch-changes-in-eu-populations-over-the-past-70-years

In 1960 the fertility rate of the average European woman was 2.6, by 2015, this number had fallen to 1.6.  It is currently 1.8 in the UK.  To maintain a population you need 2.1 births per women with the 0.1 accounting for early deaths.  

If that trend continued worldwide we would see a reduction in the worlds population over a generation, if that wasn't enough you could 'do a China' and enforce a one child per family law but the burden on the younger generation would be greater.

Personally I think with technological advancement, becoming more aware of green issues a slow natural reduction in population will be enough.  If the more alarmist predictions are to be believed however then yes I would introduce population control laws - that might be harsh but as you pointed out yourself the altenative is a Mad Max future...

Solving climate change or the population explosion can't really be achieved in western civilizations however, according to the same report;

Africa and Asia are currently home to more than twice the total population of the remaining four regions combined. In eighty years time, the two continents are predicted to be consist of over 80% of the world's population.

Therefore any population controls would have to be worldwide which would mean breaking down various ideological and religious barriers. 

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Technically, and pedantically, because we do not have a funded state pension system no money was actually removed. Instead a previously understood future commitment was simply rubbed out and the debt de-recognised. 

Bit of accounting trickery....

A bit like Tom and Mason did. For tax and accounting purposes you don't count the first 3.

[Rev]

16 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Buddy, it was a joke! Do you seriously think I don't understand that headcount is relevant to CO2 levels. I've worked in the renewable energy space for over a decade now so trust me, it's a subject I'm au fait with. 

Besides, despite our political differences, I actually like you so even if I didn't agree I'd probably not say as much! ?

Loft or cavity wall insulation?

[Comrade 86]

Just now, reverendo de duivel said:

Loft or cavity wall insulation?

I was trying to think of a Phil McCavity type joke but nothing came to mind.

Solar in Sub-Saharan Africa is the answer you were seeking, or not!

[Rev]

1 minute ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I was trying to think of a Phil McCavity type joke but nothing came to mind.

Solar in Sub-Saharan Africa is the answer you were seeking, or not!

Sounds interesting.

It's just the way you called it a space, made me think of you crawling into dirty lofts with bags of lagging!

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Sounds interesting.

It's just the way you called it a space, made me think of you crawling into dirty lofts with bags of lagging!

poo business speak. No excuses. Every business sector is a 'space' these days. It's a term I hate so I really need to stop using it.

[Bound 2 tease]

2 hours ago, jono said:

 

What was the note on the treasury door back in 2010 ? something along the lines of “sorry we spent all the money” 

The Tories do seem to be destined to govern after the bank has been emptied by Labour and then get told they are mean bar stewards. 
 

 

Do you think Labour spent all the money on themselves, or did they use it to support the UK's banking system ?

 

At least one bank is still in public ownership , others have yet to repay their debts to the treasury, and others were sold off cheap to Osborne's and Mogg's chums ?

Has anybody asked for OUR money back , or are we supposed to forget?

 

 

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, Bound 2 tease said:

Do you think Labour spent all the money on themselves, or did they use it to support the UK's banking system ?

 

At least one bank is still in public ownership , others have yet to repay their debts to the treasury, and others were sold off cheap to Osborne's and Mogg's chums ?

Has anybody asked for OUR money back , or are we supposed to forget?

 

More facts. You must be new around here ?

[Bound 2 tease]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

But Labour were in no way responsible, not even 1%. In fact it seems it was all Thatchers fault.

Irrespective of what happened, and I think Gordon Brown did a good fire fighting job, the coffers were dry and something had to happen. Labour themselves had promised a decade of austerity but we are led to believe had labour been in charge it would be a land of milk and honey.

Without a doubt had the tories been in charge labour supporters would be pointing the finger at them, i havent even seen any of them deny they would. They would be then blaming the tories for austerity.

I have even seen someone suggest Major was an horrific PM but his part in the peace process in NI cannot be underestimated. People claim the NHS would not exist without Labour, they may be right, but peace in NI in the timescales it happened would not have happened without John Majors government, but you can bet that some labour supporters will just point to blair delivering it in 1998.

To be fair most people of a political persuasion are blinkered, i just tend to think died in the wool labour supporters are more than any other.

 

Does that make Major a terrorist sympathiser ?

Amazingly enough he's one of the few I admire, along with Ken Clarke...

[1of4]

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

The next line is;

The party said the proposal to slash fares by a third would cost £1.5bn per year and be covered by Vehicle Exercise Duty - money the Conservatives have earmarked for roads.

You can slash rail fares by 33% but people will still need roads - where's the money for new roads/repairs coming from?  And why are we taxing road users for rail users?

So all the owners of large BMWs and Merc will have clear motorways they can speed up and down on, without the need to sit six inches off from my bumper while flashing their headlights.

[Comrade 86]

8 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Sounds interesting.

It's just the way you called it a space, made me think of you crawling into dirty lofts with bags of lagging!

It's a labour of love and cost me as much money as it made. These days I mainly consult, typically on using solar panels and wind turbines to deliver micro-grids, mainly because it costs me nothing to do so and I don't end up spending 30 hours a week in the air.

[jono]

57 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

But Labour were in no way responsible, not even 1%. In fact it seems it was all Thatchers fault.

Irrespective of what happened, and I think Gordon Brown did a good fire fighting job, the coffers were dry and something had to happen. Labour themselves had promised a decade of austerity but we are led to believe had labour been in charge it would be a land of milk and honey.

Without a doubt had the tories been in charge labour supporters would be pointing the finger at them, i havent even seen any of them deny they would. They would be then blaming the tories for austerity.

I have even seen someone suggest Major was an horrific PM but his part in the peace process in NI cannot be underestimated. People claim the NHS would not exist without Labour, they may be right, but peace in NI in the timescales it happened would not have happened without John Majors government, but you can bet that some labour supporters will just point to blair delivering it in 1998.

To be fair most people of a political persuasion are blinkered, i just tend to think died in the wool labour supporters are more than any other.

 

I honestly think it is wildly simplistic to blame any party or political colour for the changes the western world and the UK have experienced in the last 60 years. They have all played some part in altering the pace a few points and guiding some societal shifts but the reality is the rest of the world has done things differently and from a different starting point. 
 

we went from dark satanic mills to factories acts and votes for women and maximum hours per week. The truth is, while it was hard for those fighting those battles they were going to be won because there was plenty of money. Businesses had technical and skill advantages that simply were not present in the rest of the world. We had an empire that we used for cheap resources and companies wanting our gear. We were a premier league team playing non leaguers in the cup every weekend they were queuing up to watch us play. As time went by we were mid table, the Germans and the Japanese were a touch more efficient or clever, our unions were a bit more Bolshie our bosses a bit more short sighted or greedy. We got a get out of jail card in the 70/80’s with North Sea oil. But mining ? Well I think there are 3 coal fired power stations left ... and burning coal now ? Let’s all get pony and traps to go to work. 
 

Backed by historic wealth and a huge bank balance we developed a civilisation of sorts, I’ve we have pensions, an NHS a kinder outlook to our fellow man along with largely sound and fair labour and tax laws. .. India ? China ? Vietnam, Do they have one iota of the protections we have of course not. If they did then you could make a steel casting or a pair of trousers at the market price on your home turf. We aren’t lazier or thicker. We are just more civilised by our own standards. 
 

Corbyn is backing a solution that failed in communism 

Boris is backing a status quo that is teetering on the brink 

The world has changed. 
 

I haven’t heard one politician with a realistic answer to population, industry or how we can have enough work to sustain us along with dreams we can realise; that isn’t based on bias, jealousy, one sided self protection or failed historical ideologies. We have no funds for those dreams because we import more than we export. We spend more than we earn and have done since the 1970’s (oil boom apart) 

We have had varying degrees of labour and Conservative in charge but both have just moved the deckchairs on the Titanic. Loads of Money Tories and Red Robbo union leaders who supported Labour. All failed, but they were going to anyway because the pitch developed a slope, the wind and the ref was against them. 
 

 

 

[Bound 2 tease]

6 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

More facts. You must be new around here ?

Not new, just in despair.

 

 

[1of4]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

What do you think is a reasonable fare?

Any public transport journey shouldn't cost more than what the cost would be to drive there in a car.

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

But Labour were in no way responsible, not even 1%. In fact it seems it was all Thatchers fault.

Irrespective of what happened, and I think Gordon Brown did a good fire fighting job, the coffers were dry and something had to happen. Labour themselves had promised a decade of austerity but we are led to believe had labour been in charge it would be a land of milk and honey.

Without a doubt had the tories been in charge labour supporters would be pointing the finger at them, i havent even seen any of them deny they would. They would be then blaming the tories for austerity.

I have even seen someone suggest Major was an horrific PM but his part in the peace process in NI cannot be underestimated. People claim the NHS would not exist without Labour, they may be right, but peace in NI in the timescales it happened would not have happened without John Majors government, but you can bet that some labour supporters will just point to blair delivering it in 1998.

To be fair most people of a political persuasion are blinkered, i just tend to think died in the wool labour supporters are more than any other.

 

Agree with most of this Paul but I think you'll find most Labour supporters have a deal of time for John Major and respect and acknowledge his key role in delivering the Good Friday Agreement. Interestingly he was much derided amongst Tories for being a bit of a 'grey man' in much the same way as Corbyn is among some Labour supporters now, a criticism that's never made any sense to me.

in any case, not all of us Labour voters have always voted labour, nor are we all the rabid Trots that some would have you believe! Policies first! Some of us just sincerely want a different future to that we're offered by the current Tory government and nothing more or less than that. Unfortunately social media only serves to define a chasm that may not in all reality even exist.

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, Bound 2 tease said:

Not new, just in despair.

Well this thread won't help much then!

[Rev]

2 minutes ago, jono said:

haven’t

 

2 minutes ago, jono said:

I haven’t heard one politician with a realistic answer to population, industry or how we can have enough work to sustain us along with dreams we can realise

I couldn't agree more with this, not on single word from politicians of any colour on how we'll cope with increased automation and A.I. taking more and more jobs from the economy.

We're standing on the verge of another industrial revolution, that could change our working life's immeasurably, yet not one word on the opportunities or challenges this will bring.

[Bound 2 tease]

4 minutes ago, jono said:

I honestly think it is wildly simplistic to blame any party or political colour for the changes the western world and the UK have experienced in the last 60 years. They have all played some part in altering the pace a few points and guiding some societal shifts but the reality is the rest of the world has done things differently and from a different starting point. 
 

we went from dark satanic mills to factories acts and votes for women and maximum hours per week. The truth is, while it was hard for those fighting those battles they were going to be won because there was plenty of money. Businesses had technical and skill advantages that simply were not present in the rest of the world. We had an empire that we used for cheap resources and companies wanting our gear. We were a premier league team playing non leaguers in the cup every weekend they were queuing up to watch us play. As time went by we were mid table, the Germans and the Japanese were a touch more efficient or clever, our unions were a bit more Bolshie our bosses a bit more short sighted or greedy. We got a get out of jail card in the 70/80’s with North Sea oil. But mining ? Well I think there are 3 coal fired power stations left ... and burning coal now ? Let’s all get pony and traps to go to work. 
 

Backed by historic wealth and a huge bank balance we developed a civilisation of sorts, I’ve we have pensions, an NHS a kinder outlook to our fellow man along with largely sound and fair labour and tax laws. .. India ? China ? Vietnam, Do they have one iota of the protections we have of course not. If they did then you could make a steel casting or a pair of trousers at the market price on your home turf. We aren’t lazier or thicker. We are just more civilised by our own standards. 
 

Corbyn is backing a solution that failed in communism 

Boris is backing a status quo that is teetering on the brink 

The world has changed. 
 

I haven’t heard one politician with a realistic answer to population, industry or how we can have enough work to sustain us along with dreams we can realise; that isn’t based on bias, jealousy, one sided self protection or failed historical ideologies. We have no funds for those dreams because we import more than we export. We spend more than we earn and have done since the 1970’s (oil boom apart) 

We have had varying degrees of labour and Conservative in charge but both have just moved the deckchairs on the Titanic. Loads of Money Tories and Red Robbo union leaders who supported Labour. All failed, but they were going to anyway because the pitch developed a slope, the wind and the ref was against them. 
 

 

 

You're absolutely right, but Boris is more crash and burn...there's lots of money to be made destroying a saturated economy.

A man who likes us to think he's super virle , with innumerous  offspring, do we think that he actually cares about anybody ?

[jono]

46 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Buddy, it was a joke! Do you seriously think I don't understand that headcount is relevant to CO2 levels. I've worked in the renewable energy space for over a decade now so trust me, it's a subject I'm au fait with. 

Besides, despite our political differences, I actually like you so even if I didn't agree I'd probably not say as much! ?

Honesty I knew you were joking, I just have a big bee in bonnet about population. I laugh when I see ONS stats showing the UK population which is apparently 10-20% more than when I was at school 50 years ago. .. it isn’t 

hey and politics .. it’s politics.. lots of ways to win a match and no one has the right recipe for every game. No I don’t like Corbyn and momentum but if you have a heart and like fair play ( which I have  and do ) then there has to be some socialist in you