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The Politics Thread 2019


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1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

That is because both Labour and Tories blamed everything on the EU, which was a bunch of lies.  Yes they voted brexit as a revolt, however it has plunged the country into utter uncertainty and the impact will be on the people on the council house waiting list, those needing care in later years, and trust me, I have seen the impact already.  Never mind the NHS and education, inward investment, exports, research and development and most worrying national security

But people are more concerned about the here and now.  May offered a multi-billion pound package for the 'folk up north' to get her deal through parliament, which worked out at about £9 per head iirc. Lets convince them with a bag of chips and a pack of fags. Laughable. 

They have lived in the EU for years and seen their communities 'diversify' and their jobs disappear.  Now they are being told they are the ones to blame, they are the thick, ignorant racists and are slowly watching their vote get reversed. 

Whatever the final outcome of Brexit there will be a lot of very unhappy and angry people frustrated with the result.

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17 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

But that isn't true is it? Not from what I have read.

Why is it so unreasonable for some to be concerned that a decision taken that has such far reaching consequences be rigorously scrutinised,?

A further confirmatory vote seems entirely reasonable to me once we have some greater insights available to us. Both sides in the referendum used large dollops of guesswork and they have both been equally derided. Now that we know a bit better we can simply reaffirm. 

You haven't been reading most of this thread then. For the most part the remain voters on here resort to petty insults to the entire leave portion of the electorate. Two posters spring immediately to mind, but i wont name them. Insulting and belittling others will do the exact opposite of what they are trying to achieve. 

There is nothing wrong with it being rigorously scrutinised. My issue was with the manner in which a number of posters on this forum see themselves as the only people "intelligent" enough to have made the "correct" decision and that everybody else has been tricked by the evil politicians.

I would agree that both sides have used guesswork and i would have no issue with a second referendum. Whether it would be another straight in or out referendum though I dont know. If leave won again maybe they have a follow up question on the same referendum which asks the electorate whether they accept Mays deal (if there is one) or we go full no deal or some other option. The second question woild just be ignored in the event of a remain win.

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8 hours ago, maxjam said:

They have lived in the EU for years and seen their communities 'diversify' and their jobs disappear.  Now they are being told they are the ones to blame, they are the thick, ignorant racists and are slowly watching their vote get reversed. 

The areas with high diversity, ie cities, were more likely to vote for remain. The areas with poor job prospects and less diversity were more likely to vote leave. These areas clearly have less EU immigration as why would they go there when jobs are scarce?

The reason there are no jobs are because everything is been sacrificed at the alter of capitalism. Bail out the banks and let the working class industries die. I don't think Romanian kids working at Pret in London are taking the jobs of unemployed people in Sunderland or Swansea.

No one is saying these people who voted Leave in these situations are thick or racist. We are saying that these people have been deliberately mislead by people whose companies can make big money gambling on failure (Mogg), people who want to be PM (Johnson), or people who are a bit racist (Farage). People who little couldn't care less about the "deserving poor".

They do everything they can to make life harder for poorer people, but then are suddenly on their side now? 

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4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The areas with high diversity, ie cities, were more likely to vote for remain. The areas with poor job prospects and less diversity were more likely to vote leave. These areas clearly have less EU immigration as why would they go there when jobs are scarce?

I stated earlier in the thread that voting leave because of immigration was not a great reason for doing so, as it won't stop immigration especially from the third world. However to suggest that EU immigration has no affect on the poorer areas is not accurate. You only have to go to Shirebrook for an example - a poor area and former mining town with low wages and high unemployment that has a major employer based there in the form of Sports Direct who primarily employs Polish and other Eastern European immigrants on extremely low wages. Sports Direct are well within their rights to source cheaper labour from Eastern Europe with membership of the EU, as their aim is to make as much money as they can, but it isn't helping the local people of Shirebrook one bit.

 

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1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

The areas with high diversity, ie cities, were more likely to vote for remain. The areas with poor job prospects and less diversity were more likely to vote leave. These areas clearly have less EU immigration as why would they go there when jobs are scarce?

The reason there are no jobs are because everything is been sacrificed at the alter of capitalism. Bail out the banks and let the working class industries die. I don't think Romanian kids working at Pret in London are taking the jobs of unemployed people in Sunderland or Swansea.

You obviously have little idea about wage compression or immigration where I live

You have stated you are in the wealthiest 10%. So where is it you live? London? South East? South West?

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On 18/04/2019 at 19:42, SillyBilly said:

I also think Change UK is exactly the sort of party we need to maintain the status quo with the EU.

I just hope Tony Blair comes out of retirement now to lead this new party occupying the centre ground and rstoring sanity by cancelling Brexit.

Also refreshing to see a party not stuffed with career politicians and politicians who have the courage of their convictions - despite what others say I don't think it actually matters none of them see it fit to ask the electorate if they approve of their decision, that can wait until the next general election afterall. And to be honest it doesn't matter what manifesto they were elected on the back of either, noone could have envisioned how badly Brexit could have gone since then - they have a new responsbility to make the decision according to the realities of today, not because of some vote 3 years ago.

It’s strange how they call themselves ‘Change’ when they want to keep the status Quo

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Yes the majority of the people who took part in the referendum voted to leave the EU. Yes the majority of the country's MPs voted to invoke article 50, thus starting the leave process. A process I'll happily go along with. As soon as someone comes up with and is then capable of delivering a workable plan for leaving. One that will not result in the vast majority of the people of this country having a worse living standards than they do now. One that is not built on ifs and maybes, lies and unattainable promises.

It appears that our MPs have a quandary in finding and agreeing to a plan that will be good for the entire country. It's why Parliament is in the mess it now finds it's self in.

May and her government have had near on three years to implement a leave plan.

Why as it not happened?

It's probably because the majority of MPs, of all parties, understood there was no deal better, than the one we already have. Even Cameron, who was the most useless and ineffective PM this country ever seen, knew enough, to know he faced an impossible task and jumped ship at the first opportunity.

Instead of Parliament concentrating on sorting out the the real problems, the NHS, education, transport, the environment and the eradication of poverty, that face our country. Its achieved nothing, while wasting it's time in trying to comply with wishes of the people and the referendum. 

A referendum that wasn't called for the good of the country but to shut-up the euro- sceptics, avert a split in the conservative party and stop a number of tory MPs defecting to Ukip. A strategy which appears to have failed badly, as they now seem to have more than one split in the party.

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9 hours ago, GenBr said:

I stated earlier in the thread that voting leave because of immigration was not a great reason for doing so, as it won't stop immigration especially from the third world. However to suggest that EU immigration has no affect on the poorer areas is not accurate. You only have to go to Shirebrook for an example - a poor area and former mining town with low wages and high unemployment that has a major employer based there in the form of Sports Direct who primarily employs Polish and other Eastern European immigrants on extremely low wages. Sports Direct are well within their rights to source cheaper labour from Eastern Europe with membership of the EU, as their aim is to make as much money as they can, but it isn't helping the local people of Shirebrook one bit.

 

Fair enough, there are early going to be lots of examples like this. I still think the areas with high EU immigration were more likely to vote remain and vice versa.

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8 hours ago, Norman said:

You obviously have little idea about wage compression or immigration where I live

You have stated you are in the wealthiest 10%. So where is it you live? London? South East? South West?

I don't know where you live so I don't know about wage compression. I'm sure it exists though.

I live in South East after migrating to London in 2000 when I couldn't get a job back in the Midlands.  Whilst I am probably in the top 10% of wealth, I don't feel wealthy, I just know there are loads of people worse off. And I support parties who think about the 90% first.

The terrible irony of working class Leavers is that they have put their faith in people who aren't even bothered about most of the wealthier top 10%, just that ultra rich 1% of whom they belong/are desperate to belong.

I'll probably be fine with Leave or Remain. I'm against Leave in it's current guise as I don't see how lots of people are not gonna to get screwed. What won't happen is some sort of post-Black Death scenario, where all the EU immigrants leave and everyone gets big payrises due to a shortage of staff.

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4 hours ago, 1of4 said:

A referendum that wasn't called for the good of the country but to shut-up the euro- sceptics, avert a split in the conservative party and stop a number of tory MPs defecting to Ukip. A strategy which appears to have failed badly, as they now seem to have more than one split in the party.

Great point. Hopefully the legacy of the Etonian's Referendum will be the final nail in the Tory coffin. They did it because they know that, as their old voters die, their future is bleak.

Remember when they used to blame the poor, the unemployed, the disabled etc for everything in the few years before the referendum. That found a better bogeyman in EU immigrants.

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1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Fair enough, there are early going to be lots of examples like this. I still think the areas with high EU immigration were more likely to vote remain and vice versa.

For the most part yes you are correct. London was the only region in England that voted to remain. When there are plenty of jobs, wealth everywhere and opportunities are plentiful you tend not to be looking for someone to blame.

I think its mainly a rich/poor issue to be honest. The poorer areas are looking for someone to blame for their situation and that blame usually falls on the immigrants regardless of their actions.

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9 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Wonderful thank you for your insightful comment yet again, but I am not wrong.

England was split into the same regions as we use for the EU elections for vote counting purposes - 9 in total. These were East Midlands, West Midlands, London, East of England, North East England, North West England, South East England and South West England. Of these areas only London voted to remain with South East England the only other that came rdmotely close.

However if you wish to break it down further it doesnt much change my point - virtually the only areas that voted remain were the wealthy areas in London and the home counties plus Bristol. Virtually everywhere else voted to leave. Nice try, thanks for playing though.

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8 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Wonderful thank you for your insightful comment yet again, but I am not wrong.

England was split into the same regions as we use for the EU elections for vote counting purposes - 9 in total. These were East Midlands, West Midlands, London, East of England, North East England, North West England, South East England and South West England. Of these areas only London voted to remain with South East England the only other that came rdmotely close.

However if you wish to break it down further it doesnt much change my point - virtually the only areas that voted remain were the wealthy areas in London and the home counties plus Bristol. Virtually everywhere else voted to leave. Nice try, thanks for playing though.

You are making sweeping generalisations, based on no actual facts....hmm where have we seen that before?  The 'win' was a small 3.8% and has been proven to have been gained by illegal means.  Don't see you argue against that fact.

Perhaps you are fine that the country was lied to, manipulated and conned.  Just for the record, I am lucky that brexit will not impact on me, personally, however I have seen the effect that that vote is having.

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30 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

You are making sweeping generalisations, based on no actual facts....hmm where have we seen that before?  The 'win' was a small 3.8% and has been proven to have been gained by illegal means.  Don't see you argue against that fact.

Perhaps you are fine that the country was lied to, manipulated and conned.  Just for the record, I am lucky that brexit will not impact on me, personally, however I have seen the effect that that vote is having.

Christ, don’t you go on.  For balance, we in the United Kingdom have had no chance of winning the Eurovision Song Contest for over 20 years. 

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21 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Christ, don’t you go on.  For balance, we in the United Kingdom have had no chance of winning the Eurovision Song Contest for over 20 years. 

Nope, won't give up anytime soon either.  Can't stand people who are just out there to line their own pockets and screw the workers.

As for Eurovision, it's worth it just for Graham Norton talking the mick, as he slowly gets drunk.

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1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

You are making sweeping generalisations, based on no actual facts....hmm where have we seen that before?  The 'win' was a small 3.8% and has been proven to have been gained by illegal means.  Don't see you argue against that fact.

As opposed to Project Fear and the mainstream media's pro-Brexit coverage;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5428081/bbc-news-coverage-biased-against-brexit/

http://civitas.org.uk/press/pro-brexit-voices-drowned-out-in-bbc-news-programmes-new-analysis-shows/

and its not just the programmes, its all the Gary Lineker's etc as well abusing their platform.

Ultimately we were given a once in a generation referendum which was then backed up with a general election, if Brexit isn't delivered there will be a lot of very angry people.

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14 hours ago, GenBr said:

I stated earlier in the thread that voting leave because of immigration was not a great reason for doing so, as it won't stop immigration especially from the third world. However to suggest that EU immigration has no affect on the poorer areas is not accurate. You only have to go to Shirebrook for an example - a poor area and former mining town with low wages and high unemployment that has a major employer based there in the form of Sports Direct who primarily employs Polish and other Eastern European immigrants on extremely low wages. Sports Direct are well within their rights to source cheaper labour from Eastern Europe with membership of the EU, as their aim is to make as much money as they can, but it isn't helping the local people of Shirebrook one bit.

 

I suspect though that if you denied mr Ashley his quota of cheap eastern European labour, he will suddenly become interested in cheap sub-continent immigrant labour. 

Again not to the advantage of shirebrook. 

Recall when the government were trying to woo India into a big trade deal they wanted to talk visas. 

I'm not saying that the folk of eg shirebrook are not justified in being very angry. But I do believe that they are aiming at the wrong target. 

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27 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Nope, won't give up anytime soon either.  Can't stand people who are just out there to line their own pockets and screw the workers.

As for Eurovision, it's worth it just for Graham Norton talking the mick, as he slowly gets drunk.

He may be sozzled, rude and witty but hes no Sir Terry (rip) ?

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