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The Politics Thread 2019

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17 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

Yes, but your analyses of how the world will cave-in as a result are ludicrously overly-dramatic.

But anyway I was only really making the point about how some people are willing to tell themselves that no deal will be OK, but soil their kecks at the thought of a Labour government who actively want to improve life for the many not the few. People are batty

They wouldn't though. They'd almost certainly make the lives of everyone in this country infinitely pooper with the massive increase in taxes and plans to steal peoples homes and educations. Flood the country with people who may happen to vote for them. 

Also, as an ex forces bloke and someone who is particularly appalled by the levels of antisemitism in the Labour party, they absolutely terrify me. Ran by people who've sided with the enemies of this country their entire careers. 

 

Edited by Red_Dawn

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12 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

I can remember 3 day weeks, power cuts, 15%+ interest rates on my mortgage. 

https://www.ngiresidential.co.uk/rise-and-fall-historical-interest-rates-in-the-uk-1979-2019/

The incoming administration of Margaret Thatcher raised interest rates to 17 per cent, as this was seen by the government of the time as a key weapon in combating inflation. It did have the effect of reducing inflation, although critics noted its negative impact on UK manufacturing exports. Interest rates began to rise again towards the end of the 1980s, partly under the pressure of house price rises.

 

And me! Wouldn't want to go back to those days.

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22 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

We need an IQ test for the right to vote. It's obvious that most people are just too stupid to be given a say in who rules them.

Yeah calm down their Heinrich. I dont think we need a lesson on amateur eugenics on a football forum, thanks. 

Edited by Red_Dawn

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16 hours ago, maxjam said:

Force landlords to sell their own property

Abolish and redistribute private schooling

Open borders

Allow foreigners the vote

Four day week

Reparations

Do we really need to look at the detail? 

You probably do if you want to represent them clearly in a list of bullet points without any bias

Force landlords to sell their own property
This is talking about trying to end the "buy to let" culture which is wrecking the housing market. It's just a suggestion and aimed specifically at those rogue landlords who don't invest in their rental properties but continue to milk the poor sods who can't afford to buy their own place. Of course the right wing press paint it as a stalinist land grab. Let's be honest - this would never fly as a compulsory scheme, and it's disingenuous of the press to suggest that's what will happen. At best I think it would be down to introducing new laws that apply to negligent landlords. The actual main policy to fix this is more social housing, but it doesn't grab the headlines for some reason

Open borders
FullFact debunked this one https://fullfact.org/immigration/labour-immigration-policy/

Allow foreigners the vote
No - they have said they will consider allowing all permanent UK residents voting rights. If you live permanently in a country, why should you not be able to have a say in how that country is run? This already applies to Irish citizens and citizens from Comminwealth nations who live here, so what's the difference? I'd have thought you'd be all for not treating people differently and giving them different rights based on their characteristics?

Four day week
You don't think the idea of a four day week for the same pay is a vote winner? okaaaaaay

Reparations
The fact the UK has never paid a penny in reparations, or even apologised for it's part in the slave trade is shameful

 

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19 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

The original statement was that the current situation was worse that he could remember. I don't know how old GBoro is but worse than he can remember back to? Really? If you read what the replies were instead of knee jerk posting, you can see nobody has said it is perfect. Perhaps you would like to cut and paste a link from an obscure search engine that shows us all, when it was perfect, or even just better? I can remember 3 day weeks, power cuts, 15%+ interest rates on my mortgage. 

You really should read things twice before jumping in. 

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/jump-in

Enjoy. That was Google by the way,, 

I'm 48, so my golden era goes back to the late 80s/early 90s. You'd start your career as a student, grant funded. By the time I got a chance to go to university, the grant was reduced and it was loan funded partly. Now that's even worse, you can't expect to leave university without serious debt. 

My first mortgage was £30k. My stepson now has moved into his first home which was £180k. He will be paying his mortgage for 40 years, I was able to get a 20 year mortgage.

I started work as an office admin, working for modest pay but I had plenty of protections in law. The Thatcher years started the erosion of workers rights. I used to be able to rely on my union to fight for my rights, but now we're in the situation that the union is powerless to help you in plenty of situations. Attacks on workers rights are nothing new, but it seems to me now that the employer definitely has the upper hand. When I started work if you didn't like what your employer was doing you could walk out, knowing you could at least get benefits to tide you over. Now you know if you quit you'll have made yourself voluntarily unemployed so you won't be entitled to anything - so you don't quit, you accept whatever you have to.

Pay rises used to be noticeable on your pay packet. Now they barely make any difference but prices in the shops seem to be rising, certainly making me feel like I've got less disposable income. I'm sure that was always the case but I certainly feel it more now.

When I was younger it was the expectation that if you were working class, you would live in a council house and pay modest rent. Now the shortage of council housing means your chances of getting somewhere affordable to live, with a reliable if slow service from the council repairs department should you need anything. I even remember the council modernising the house in a couple of properties I lived in as a child. Now you are more likely to be in private rented accommodation or paying a mortgage if you can get on the ladder. Either way you're more likely to have little in the way of support keeping the house in good living condition.

I worked on the railway when I first began work. There was a conversation I remember with a colleague who'd just applied for a loan, and he made the comment that they asked if he'd like to take some form of insurance should he be out of work. He found it funny because he worked on the railway, which at the time was seen as a job for life. That no longer exists.

People often found jobs and stuck with them for decades, happy with the job they were doing. Nowadays it's far more common for people to change jobs after 2 or 3 years. Why would that be?

There's limited job options for people newly entering the job market, and you tend to see part time or zero hours roles all over - the other choice will be fruit/veg picking and factory production line jobs, with continental shifts, split shifts or 12 on/12 off hours. 

As I say, from my recollection it's as bad now as it's ever been, particularly for those joining the job market at the bottom.

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32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Agreed. Way too complex for the average person to understand.

How about a competency test for prospective MP's?

2+2=

98/6=

Spell: European Union, Referendum, ignore -(This presumes they can read and copy)

Summarise the Withdrawal Agreement main 50 points

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9 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

There's limited job options for people newly entering the job market, and you tend to see part time or zero hours roles all over

As I say, from my recollection it's as bad now as it's ever been, particularly for those joining the job market at the bottom.

I'm a similar age and with much the same life experiences.

As I said yesterday - right now it's easy to argue that zero hours contracts aren't necessarily a bad thing, and yes - *some* people like them, but they will become more and more widespread as our employment rights are eroded and businesses have to try harder to maintain growth.

As work becomes harder to find, eventually companies will get to the point where they can offer, what was once a permanent full time job as zero hours and know that someone will be desperate enough to take it. Hey presto they have saved money on their employment costs. It's obviously coming if we carry on the current path

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15 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

The original statement was that the current situation was worse that he could remember. I don't know how old GBoro is but worse than he can remember back to? Really? If you read what the replies were instead of knee jerk posting, you can see nobody has said it is perfect. Perhaps you would like to cut and paste a link from an obscure search engine that shows us all, when it was perfect, or even just better? I can remember 3 day weeks, power cuts, 15%+ interest rates on my mortgage. 

You really should read things twice before jumping in. 

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/jump-in

Enjoy. That was Google by the way,, 

3 day week was a tory manifestation, knee jerk reaction to the oil crisis, that they handled badly, plus, they wanted to shut the coal mines and ship it in from Poland for half the price. Heath went on to cripple the country, and that baton was taken up by Thatcher, who made 1.5m unemployed people become 3.5m unemployed people.  Since that date the tories have invested a lot of money on how not to count the unemployed. 

As for your 15% interest rates, back then you could only buy a house for a maximum of 2.5 times of the highest salary of the house hold, and the other salary usually was ignored as a contributing factor.  Today, if you earned the minimum of £10 an hour, you would scrape £20k a year, working 40 hours a week.  Please tell me where you can buy a house for £50k.  Taking the average wage is reportedly around £35k, where can you get a house for £85k?

Here is some left of centre, hopefully the sarcasm doesn't get missed.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/mar/05/health.drugsandalcohol

1970's 15% on £4k is about £600 in simple terms

Average UK house price 2019, in Derby, £212k; mortgage rate, 3.7% general average with out deals, interest £7.8k in simple terms.

In the 70's they had power cuts, however they could start work, save, buy a house by the time they are 21, probably married as well, use to be fashionable back then.  Worse case scenario, they could apply and get a council house, which was usually better built, was bigger and had a decent garden.

 

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38 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

They wouldn't though. They'd almost certainly make the lives of everyone in this country infinitely pooper with the massive increase in taxes and plans to steal peoples homes and educations. Flood the country with people who may happen to vote for them. 

Also, as an ex forces bloke and someone who is particularly appalled by the levels of antisemitism in the Labour party, they absolutely terrify me. Ran by people who've sided with the enemies of this country their entire careers. 

 

What’s bad about higher taxes?

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20 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

You probably do if you want to represent them clearly in a list of bullet points without any bias

Force landlords to sell their own property
This is talking about trying to end the "buy to let" culture which is wrecking the housing market. It's just a suggestion and aimed specifically at those rogue landlords who don't invest in their rental properties but continue to milk the poor sods who can't afford to buy their own place. Of course the right wing press paint it as a stalinist land grab. Let's be honest - this would never fly as a compulsory scheme, and it's disingenuous of the press to suggest that's what will happen. At best I think it would be down to introducing new laws that apply to negligent landlords. The actual main policy to fix this is more social housing, but it doesn't grab the headlines for some reason

Open borders
FullFact debunked this one https://fullfact.org/immigration/labour-immigration-policy/

Allow foreigners the vote
No - they have said they will consider allowing all permanent UK residents voting rights. If you live permanently in a country, why should you not be able to have a say in how that country is run? This already applies to Irish citizens and citizens from Comminwealth nations who live here, so what's the difference? I'd have thought you'd be all for not treating people differently and giving them different rights based on their characteristics?

Four day week
You don't think the idea of a four day week for the same pay is a vote winner? okaaaaaay

Reparations
The fact the UK has never paid a penny in reparations, or even apologised for it's part in the slave trade is shameful

 

Forcing Landlords to Sell Their Own Properties to Tenants: Full details are in the following link. But basically the a Labour government would set some fictional cut rate price, which landlor4ds would be obliged to offer to tenants as a purchasable price. All that would accomplish is a rush for Britains 2.6m landlords to offload their tenants and sell before Labour bankrupts them with a bogus price. Nobody should ever be forced to sell their properties against their will.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-right-buy-scheme-houses-landlords-tenants-john-mcdonnell-corbyn-a9088211.html

Open Borders/Foreigners having the Vote: Nothing debunked at all. They've decided to scrap all immigration controls, close all detention centres and give any UK resident the right to vote. Extend free movement to the entire world. Give the same rights as people like me who've paid into the system their entire life. If I was a temporary resident in Spain, or Germany or the Czech republic, no I wouldn't expect the same voting rights at all. 

Four Day Week: How is this going to work in practicality? It might be a vote seller to your average lazy Briton, but private companies will almost certainly cut wages and or jobs as a result of losing a 1/5th of their productivity. A complete non starter.

Reperations: I've only read a limited amount on this but seems several of the shadow cabinet, including their shadow chancellor is down for paying taxpayer money for things that happened hundreds of years ago. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-would-begin-pay-reparations-20156830

Carbon Emissions: Pledged to be carbon neutral in 10 years. This is possibly the most ridiculous one of them all. I'd like to see the bill for when millions of Britains are forced to replace their gas boilers en masse. 

@SchtivePesley you can put a spin on things, but the evidence of their ridiculous policies are there in plain for everyone to see. 

Also, I notice you reacted with a laughing emojji to my post explaining my concerns as an ex servicemen, and also on the institutional racism in your party.

Is that something you typically find funny? Or is it 'all smears' as I often read by Corbynites online?

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I'm no expert on this by any stretch, however aren't nations like Norway, Finland and Denmark paying crazy high tax, and yet are consistently ranked highest in terms of national happiness and quality of life? 

Pretty sure they all have leftie governments no? (might be wrong on that – happy to be corrected)

Maybe, just maybe, Labour are following a model that actually works.

Also, I find it odd that so many are slamming Diane Abbott for making a mathematical error, when Boris Johnson plastered a (quite blatantly) made-up number on the side of a bus and a bunch of you (probably the same posters mocking Abbott) voted for it. 

Edited by Ramshankered

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48 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

 

Reparations
The fact the UK has never paid a penny in reparations, or even apologised for it's part in the slave trade is shameful

 

Will we see reparations from Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Tunisia and Turkey for the massive Ottoman slave trade?

Ranged as far as Ireland and Cornwall, all through Asia.

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9 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Forcing Landlords to Sell Their Own Properties to Tenants: Full details are in the following link. But basically the a Labour government would set some fictional cut rate price, which landlor4ds would be obliged to offer to tenants as a purchasable price. All that would accomplish is a rush for Britains 2.6m landlords to offload their tenants and sell before Labour bankrupts them with a bogus price. Nobody should ever be forced to sell their properties against their will.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-right-buy-scheme-houses-landlords-tenants-john-mcdonnell-corbyn-a9088211.html

Open Borders/Foreigners having the Vote: Nothing debunked at all. They've decided to scrap all immigration controls, close all detention centres and give any UK resident the right to vote. Extend free movement to the entire world. Give the same rights as people like me who've paid into the system their entire life. If I was a temporary resident in Spain, or Germany or the Czech republic, no I wouldn't expect the same voting rights at all. 

Four Day Week: How is this going to work in practicality? It might be a vote seller to your average lazy Briton, but private companies will almost certainly cut wages and or jobs as a result of losing a 1/5th of their productivity. A complete non starter.

Reperations: I've only read a limited amount on this but seems several of the shadow cabinet, including their shadow chancellor is down for paying taxpayer money for things that happened hundreds of years ago. https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-would-begin-pay-reparations-20156830

Carbon Emissions: Pledged to be carbon neutral in 10 years. This is possibly the most ridiculous one of them all. I'd like to see the bill for when millions of Britains are forced to replace their gas boilers en masse. 

@SchtivePesley you can put a spin on things, but the evidence of their ridiculous policies are there in plain for everyone to see. 

Also, I notice you reacted with a laughing emojji to my post explaining my concerns as an ex servicemen, and also on the institutional racism in your party.

Is that something you typically find funny? Or is it 'all smears' as I often read by Corbynites online?

I'd just written something very similar, but with a lot more sarcasm so I'm glad I refreshed the page again before posting - I don't really want to spend all day arguing.

They are ridiculous policies the evidence of which can be found in Labours pitiful polling when up against the worst Tory government in living memory (some now even have them behind Lib Dems after their conference). 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/06/poll-shows-conservative-party-15-points-ahead-of-labour

I don't generally give a lot of time to polls but any sort of sensible policies would guarantee Labour a landslide. 

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14 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

 

The person best placed to spend my hard earned wages is me, not the government. And certainly not by some shambolic Labour government.

Taxes pay for education, healthcare, police, fire, ambulance, your beloved armed forces etc etc etc.

We could have more police, better equipped armed forces, better resourced schools, more nurses. Won't that make society better? Won't it make the money you have spent safer?

My taxes go to pay for all sorts of things I don't like - faith schools, nuclear weapons, for example - Would you say I am best placed to decide where my money is spent if I could withdraw the money I spend on WMD?

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29 minutes ago, Ramshankered said:

I'm no expert on this by any stretch, however aren't nations like Norway, Finland and Denmark paying crazy high tax, and yet are consistently ranked highest in terms of national happiness and quality of life? 

Pretty sure they all have leftie governments no? (might be wrong on that – happy to be corrected)

Maybe, just maybe, Labour are following a model that actually works.

Also, I find it odd that so many are slamming Diane Abbott for making a mathematical error, when Boris Johnson plastered a (quite blatantly) made-up number on the side of a bus and a bunch of you (probably the same posters mocking Abbott) voted for it. 

It wasn't a made up figure, that's the gross figure before we receive a rebate. Point being is that we are a net contributor, in that we give way more than we receive, and have no direction on what that is spent on. 

A court case suggesting it was incorrect was recently thrown out. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853

 

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24 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Taxes pay for education, healthcare, police, fire, ambulance, your beloved armed forces etc etc etc.

We could have more police, better equipped armed forces, better resourced schools, more nurses. Won't that make society better? Won't it make the money you have spent safer?

My taxes go to pay for all sorts of things I don't like - faith schools, nuclear weapons, for example - Would you say I am best placed to decide where my money is spent if I could withdraw the money I spend on WMD?

I'd rather they work on spending the money they have better. As opposed to proposing needlessly nationalising industries at the cost of a fortune to the taxpayer, shutting down private schools, stealing peoples homes and paying tinpot regimes around the world for 'reparations'. 

I pay enough tax thank you very much, no more, and certainly not on any of the nonsense that Labour propose. 

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10 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

It wasn't a made up figure, that's the gross figure before we receive a rebate. Point being is that we are a net contributor, in that we give way more than we receive, and have no direction on what that is spent on. 

A court case suggesting it was incorrect was recently thrown out. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48554853

 

Ok, "made-up figure" is probably an exaggeration. 

However it was inaccurate and deliberately misleading: https://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-statistics-authority-misuse/

As you say, the number was re-framed to remove the context of the rebate and mislead the public. 

Anyway, the point I was making is that you can't really slam Diane Abbott for inaccurate figures when Tory boss Boris is a proven liar, and endorsed / promoted aforementioned misleading numbers. 

Also: Plenty of evidence of other Tory MPs getting their wires crossed and embarrassing themselves in a similar fashion. E.g. Dominic Raab "not quite understanding" how trade worked in Dover. 

Edited by Ramshankered

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14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yep I once had a tax bill of £80,000,000 but only paid £300,000. Hugely embarrassing but just a mistake.

Thank goodness I'm not in charge of government budgets.

Thank goodness she wasnt in charge of deciding what figure to put on the side of the bus...

Indeed, it was a terrible mistake, not shifting the rest of your assets to the Cayman Islands soon enough before they came snooping, and ending up being lumbered with having to pay £300,000. Have you considered outsourcing your accountancy? I hope you sacked your investment broker for such an elementary error.

That ATAD is a real burden for you entrepreneurs, isn't it? A good job we are coming out at the end of the month.

 

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56 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Will we see reparations from Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Tunisia and Turkey for the massive Ottoman slave trade?

Ranged as far as Ireland and Cornwall, all through Asia.

I think you are correct. Reparations from nation to nation based on historical wrongs is, although I think it's an admirable idea, just unworkable for a variety of reasons.  An impossible endeavour? 

An apology and an acknowledgement of historical wrongdoing is far from impossible though.  Not that that means anyone living today needs to feel shame or guilt over the past ( many people on the right seem to automatically jump to this erroneous conclusion). 

Nobody should be leaving school these days without a proper idea of the many reasons why some parts of the world ended up being rich and other regions shockingly poor. 

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