The Politics Thread 2019

[SSD]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

A genuine question, simple yes or no.

Do you trust Boris Johnson?

No.

Same applies for Corbyn.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

A genuine question, simple yes or no.

Do you trust Boris Johnson?

No.

Ask me the same question about any politician though and you would get the same answer.

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

A genuine question, simple yes or no.

Do you trust Boris Johnson?

No.

Do I trust a Corbyn led Labour Party? No

Do I trust Farage? No.

Do I trust the democratic process? No

[Uptherams]

So all those who complained how Boris became PM and that we should have a General Election...do you still support that? 

[sonofmidnight]

So once again David Cameron is nowhere to be seen having been the architect of this disgraceful mess. Why he didn't do his research and realise that the country would be split virtually down the middle is unbelievable. If you won't like the answer don't ask the question! Out of the people who bothered to vote the majority voted leave albeit a small majority. At this point surely common sense would suggest that they work together to get us the best deal. History teaches us that when people are united they achieve more. However our politicians behave like spoilt children throwing their toys out the pram and they continue to do so. Their behaviour shows contempt for democracy and it is very difficult to see where we go from here. We must be a laughing stock with the rest of the world. As has already been said the majority of parliament have no intention of delivering on the referendum so why are we going through the farce of trying to negotiate any kind if deal. They lack the guts to say they really want to go against the people's referendum. What I find so sad is the number of people who are so disillusionedthat they say they will never vote again.

[AndyinLiverpool]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No.

Ask me the same question about any politician though and you would get the same answer.

I will ask you when any politician is prime minister

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I will ask you when any politician is prime minister

Not really sure what your point is?

Didnt trust May, didnt trust Cameron, didn't trust Brown, didnt trust Blair, didnt trust Major.

Is there someone out there that you think is trustworthy? Someone that you think will deliver on their promises? Someone who will actually stick to the manifesto on which they were elected?

I dont trust Johnson but at least hes trying to do what he said he would and bring these complete shambles to an end. 

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont trust Johnson but at least hes trying to do what he said he would and bring these complete shambles to an end. 

You're right to not trust him because he really isn't doing what you think he is doing. He's lying through his teeth about all of it.

But it does beg the question that if you don't trust any politicians - of any stripe - why do you persist with politics?

Cynicism alone changes nothing

[Uptherams]

13 minutes ago, Dappled Ram said:

So once again David Cameron is nowhere to be seen having been the architect of this disgraceful mess. Why he didn't do his research and realise that the country would be split virtually down the middle is unbelievable. If you won't like the answer don't ask the question! Out of the people who bothered to vote the majority voted leave albeit a small majority. At this point surely common sense would suggest that they work together to get us the best deal. History teaches us that when people are united they achieve more. However our politicians behave like spoilt children throwing their toys out the pram and they continue to do so. Their behaviour shows contempt for democracy and it is very difficult to see where we go from here. We must be a laughing stock with the rest of the world. As has already been said the majority of parliament have no intention of delivering on the referendum so why are we going through the farce of trying to negotiate any kind if deal. They lack the guts to say they really want to go against the people's referendum. What I find so sad is the number of people who are so disillusionedthat they say they will never vote again.

I agree. They should be working together to get the best deal. Only problem is they don't want the best leave deal, they want the best remain deal. That is why it has been so. The opposition has been pathetic. 

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Well Boris's only option now is an election & yesterday's festivities make his Queen's speech & prorogation totally redundant.

Having lost his majority, he then hypocritically removed the whip from 21 of his MP's, giving him zero chance of getting anything through parliament. Except perhaps a pay rise for MPs.

He wants an election - he needs one - but he won't get one until the opposition parties say so. For want of a better phrase, they 'hold all the cards' now.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

10 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

I think there are lots of twists and turns coming over the next few days. Politicians aren't especially logical and don't often think ahead to anticipate the consequences of their actions. I have faith that Cummings thinks many more moves ahead.

It's true the Remainers are boxing him and Johnson into a corner. The two of them want a deal but tonight's vote probably makes that impossible so we come down to no deal or no Brexit. Boris will see the only way to save the Tory party is to form an electoral pact with the Brexit Party and go for an initial no deal before a Canada-style free trade agreement. That will see Farage in the Cabinet. Should Boris not do that then we'll probably see Farage in Number 10.

If the referendum had been accepted and the result embraced, leaving the EU and its institutions, the country moving on. Farage would have disappeared into obscurity, his work done. That he could now become PM is an entirely possible consequence of Remainers turning their noses up at democracy and those who had the audacity to vote the wrong way.

If I may to qualify this further I would add the word honest.

Farage in cabinet may be, Farage in number 10...these are crazy times I know, but this goes way way beyond that. 

Looks like Bojo will campaign for GE on a no deal manifesto having purged the rebels (he was once part of) to neutralise the Brexit party. All part of a (Dominic) Cunning plan no doubt.

The easiest deal they said...

[G STAR RAM]

5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

You're right to not trust him because he really isn't doing what you think he is doing. He's lying through his teeth about all of it.

But it does beg the question that if you don't trust any politicians - of any stripe - why do you persist with politics?

Cynicism alone changes nothing

Why is he lying? How do you have any idea on what I think he is doing? Once again it is Remainers deciding what Leavers think. It's such an arrogant attitude to act as though you know what other people think or voted for.

I notice you havent yet responded on the clip of Corbyn referring to the EU as a 'Frankenstein monster' yet. 

Why would I not persist with politics? It affects me. If I don't trust any politicians then it is up to me to decide which ones I distrust least or are more likely to implement more of their policies. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Really?

With 'No Deal' off the table the possibilities would range from 'Remaining' to 'May's Deal'.
With 'No Deal' on the table, you upon up the full range of possibilities from 'Remaining' to 'No Deal', and the chance to get a better deal than what May got us.
No Deal should have been the default position from the start, which would have given the EU greater motivation to reach a more passable deal.

A 'more passable' deal would have to be aligned to the Good Friday Agreement, and therein lies the problem.

A hard border is inevitable if we are to have the ability to trade with anyone under WTO rules, because tariffs must be collected. From day 1, the only viable alternatives to being a full member of the EU were either

a) Being in the European Free Trade Area (like Norway or Switzerland)

or

b) Being completely outside the EU (WTO rules etc)

There is no real middle ground - the wriggle-room afforded by the backstop would allow (a) until such times as the technological developments which are still a few years down the line allow for a migration to (b) without impacting cross-border trade or travel - and even if that were relatively seamless, there would still have to be border control infrastructure, which itself would be looked upon as contrary to the GFA, and would be opposed by dissident Republicans.

A united Ireland would solve a lot of problems, of course - but that would be opposed both by Unionists and the British government.

These problems have been known and recognised in some quarters since before the referendum - and more than three years of posturing have done nothing with respect to finding a solution.

[Stive Pesley]

26 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Why is he lying? How do you have any idea on what I think he is doing?

I'm going on the fact that Cumming admitted there has been no negotiation of a new deal, the EU have said the same. The leak that most of the existing negotiating team have been let go. He says he wants a good deal, but he doesn't really. He wants a no-deal crash so him and his hedge fund cronies can make a pile of money whilst simultaneously blaming the EU for the mess the rest of the country end up in.

Still - it's nice to know that you don't trust Boris, whilst simultaneously believing him! That's some quantum politics right there ?

 

29 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I notice you havent yet responded on the clip of Corbyn referring to the EU as a 'Frankenstein monster' yet.

I wasn't aware that I needed to but since you ask so politely! I agree with him. I've said that many times. The EU as an institution is awful and needs radical democratic reform in order to root out the needless bureaucracy and preserve all the good things that membership gives us.

That's why I look at isolationist, nationalist leave voters as complete cowards. They don't have the guts or the courage of their convictions to change things beyond scurrying back under their rock and hoping for the best

 

 

 

[Wolfie]

1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Nope.

A General Election should be just that  …. about stuff 'generally.' Any GE is now inevitably going to be dominated by BREXIT so I think to do justice to all the other issues affecting the UK (crime, NHS, etc etc). you have to split the two.

We should have a second referendum about this specific issue. Three years have passed since the Ref - 'Dealism' seems to have failed with May and everyone is now completely clued up. BREXIT should not be resolved by newspaper character assassination stories and muddy waters.

The process should be - everyone signs up to the fact that this is the absolute final decision on it, and the choice is Remain or Leave with No Deal.

Both Remain and Leave reckon they have the mandate - so put your money down. 

Oh, I agree. Which is why I then posted about the second referendum thing.

Short term, Brexit will dominate everything but until there is an election, the government will struggle to get any policies/budget/laws through parliament.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not really sure what your point is?

Didnt trust May, didnt trust Cameron, didn't trust Brown, didnt trust Blair, didnt trust Major.

Is there someone out there that you think is trustworthy? Someone that you think will deliver on their promises? Someone who will actually stick to the manifesto on which they were elected?

I dont trust Johnson but at least hes trying to do what he said he would and bring these complete shambles to an end. 

I just wanted to know whether you trust the current Prime Minister. From your posts here (and I realise that this is scant evidence) you seem to broadly support him, which in turn would suggest a level of trust that will allow you to follow his lead.

[Eddie]

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

We should have a second referendum about this specific issue.

And when one side wins, why should the other side accept it? The first referendum hasn't been respected, so why would a second? 

[WhiteHorseRam]

6 minutes ago, Andicis said:

And when one side wins, why should the other side accept it? The first referendum hasn't been respected, so why would a second? 

I said that it would be done on the understanding that this was the last call, and as both sides reckon they will win - time to put their money where there mouth is.

In truth BREXIT is the miserable gift that will just keep giving ….

If Remain had won the first Ref would the Leave folks just shut up and gone away? - No. 

The Remainers obviously haven't accepted the result since 2016 and actually seem to be getting stronger.

There are no winners here.

But a GE now would be a bastardized second Ref  - so I say let's just have a 2nd Ref. Winners takes all. 

 

[G STAR RAM]

37 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I'm going on the fact that Cumming admitted there has been no negotiation of a new deal, the EU have said the same. The leak that most of the existing negotiating team have been let go. He says he wants a good deal, but he doesn't really. He wants a no-deal crash so him and his hedge fund cronies can make a pile of money whilst simultaneously blaming the EU for the mess the rest of the country end up in.

Still - it's nice to know that you don't trust Boris, whilst simultaneously believing him! That's some quantum politics right there ?

 

I wasn't aware that I needed to but since you ask so politely! I agree with him. I've said that many times. The EU as an institution is awful and needs radical democratic reform in order to root out the needless bureaucracy and preserve all the good things that membership gives us.

That's why I look at isolationist, nationalist leave voters as complete cowards. They don't have the guts or the courage of their convictions to change things beyond scurrying back under their rock and hoping for the best

I didnt realise that if you didnt trust someone it automatically made everything they said a lie?

Whilst negotiations may not have formally begun, the change in mood of some of the more prominent figures in the EU, to me would suggest things have been discussed. I may be wrong though.

I wasnt asking whether you agreed with Corbyn or not, it was a response to your comment on my reply when I pointed out that Corbyn was quite clearly going against his convictions as an underhand way of getting himself into No 10.