The Politics Thread 2019

[Carl Sagan]

19 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Please list them off … go on, I am interested.

Way more important than Brexit are questions about climate change and stewarding the planet, about how artificial intelligence is going to transform our lives and the world and producing effective strategies to handle that, and even about establishing our place in space as a species so that humanity survives.

Here's a fascinating profile of Dominic Cummings from CNN that (pleasantly) surprised me by talking about issues such as this: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/21/uk/dominic-cummings-profile-gbr-intl/index.html

 

[1967Ram]

37 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

"Parliament to be suspended!" Don't believe the hype of the broadcast media and their remainer friends. We're entering party conference season when Parliament doesn't sit anyway. All this does is extend that period for 4 days. It finally brings to an end the second-longest parliamentary sitting in history, with the government long-since running out of legislation to bring in because Theresa May was so terrified of a new Queen's Speech and had nothing to say. At least the vacuum in leadership is over.

The remainers are using every possible constitutional device in the book, and inventing new ones with Speaker Bercow on their side, to try to prevent the Brexit referendum being honoured. They now have a regime in power that is equally steadfast in trying to use the constitution to its advantage to ensure this thing gets done on 31st October and the country can finally move on with much more important things.

ITV's Robert Peston penned an interesting assessment of it this morning:

This is no doubt true for for the 'remainers'. However, there are many MPs in Parliament who are simply opposed to leaving with no deal. The Leave 'side' promised that getting a deal would be easy - leaving with no deal wasn't even mentioned as far as I can remember. Personally, I don't think that 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU with no deal.

It's going to be an interesting few months I think.

[AndyinLiverpool]

26 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not really sure what has happened to Peston, but (not just this article) he seems to be so far up Boris Johnson's ring piece that you can see the top of his head when BJ opens his mouth

 

Perhaps 'The Honourable' Robert Peston (Balliol College, work in the finance sector) knows which side his bread is buttered with this Prime Minister (Balliol College and jobs for the boys).

[Carl Sagan]

16 minutes ago, 1967Ram said:

This is no doubt true for for the 'remainers'. However, there are many MPs in Parliament who are simply opposed to leaving with no deal. The Leave 'side' promised that getting a deal would be easy - leaving with no deal wasn't even mentioned as far as I can remember. Personally, I don't think that 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU with no deal.

It's going to be an interesting few months I think.

I think most of these are using supposed opposition to "no deal" as a veneer to coat their opposition to Brexit. If you can't leave unless there's a deal, you effectively give the EU a veto on us ever leaving. Most of the country seems to have accepted that and there's been a running majority to leave on 31st October for months in the regular Opinium survey when that question is asked:

 

[FindernRam]

Cure predictable outrage from those refusing to accept and facilitate the democratic will of the people per the referendum.

They have been using every trick in the book to stall and obstruct our leaving and the negotiations. Finally outmanoeuvred by BJ they cry foul.

I would have some respect for remainer MPs if they actually had something to offer other than block and stop. They have no idea apart from staying in what they want. They rejected May's deal , three times, without offering an alternative. They are all losers at almost every political level: They lost the referendum, they lost the election, which is why they are "opposition" parties. Some no longer truly represent their constituencies and many could be thrown out of their parties come election time. Many on percentage majorities less than the referendum. Some switched parties and refuse to offer themselves for re-election.

There is no indication the EU would accede to an extension request when we have no alternative to offer. Parliament is logjammed, the Speaker is not trusted.

In essence we are in the middle of a weapon less civil war. To clear a logjam you figuratively blow it up. That's what BJ is doing.

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

Cure predictable outrage from those refusing to accept and facilitate the democratic will of the people per the referendum.

They have been using every trick in the book to stall and obstruct our leaving and the negotiations. Finally outmanoeuvred by BJ they cry foul.

I would have some respect for remainer MPs if they actually had something to offer other than block and stop. They have no idea apart from staying in what they want. They rejected May's deal , three times, without offering an alternative. They are all losers at almost every political level: They lost the referendum, they lost the election, which is why they are "opposition" parties. Some no longer truly represent their constituencies and many could be thrown out of their parties come election time. Many on percentage majorities less than the referendum. Some switched parties and refuse to offer themselves for re-election.

There is no indication the EU would accede to an extension request when we have no alternative to offer. Parliament is logjammed, the Speaker is not trusted.

In essence we are in the middle of a weapon less civil war. To clear a logjam you figuratively blow it up. That's what BJ is doing.

 

Staying in is what remainers want. Not sure how you can say they have no idea what they want.

(and it wasn't just remain MPs that blocked May's deal. You can check the current PM's record on your own if you like but he voted against it twice and for it a third time when he thought the alternative was to remain. Whilst you're there you can check on his record regarding democratic matters - against changing the voting system, against expelling hereditary peers from the Lords, against an elected House of Lords etc etc. Some democrat)

Remainers have been trying to obstruct our leaving because making those decisions is what Parliament is for. It's representative democracy. We, the voters pass on our responsibility to MPs to make decisions for us. That's how it has always been. Whether we like it or not, it is how Parliament works. If their constituents don't like what their MP does, they can vote for someone else.

Throwing a plebiscite into that was always going to be divisive, though to call it a civil war doesn't strike me as being especially measured.

As for the speaker, his job is not to toe the government line. It is to represent the House of Commons.

The trouble with 'blowing things up' to clear a logjam is that it leads to a lot of mess.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, 1967Ram said:

Personally, I don't think that 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU with no deal.

Not only that, but it's illegal to do so.

The Gina Miller court case from earlier in the year ruled that leaving the EU *could* remove our individual rights. The reason that case failed was because we were still expecting a deal and no one knew what would be in that deal, ergo it could not be said definitively that leaving the EU would remove our individual rights

However a no-deal exit blows that out the water. It removes our rights wholesale, and the Crown has no powers to do that, unless expressly authorised by Parliament via the  enactment of  a statute to that effect.

So the legal argument is that deliberate prorogation to see us crash out without a deal and without the express authorisation of our elected parliament is against the consitution. Moves are afoot to make this legal challenge

Interesting times indeed. Let's hope common sense prevails soon

 

 

[1967Ram]

27 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Not only that, but it's illegal to do so.

The Gina Miller court case from earlier in the year ruled that leaving the EU *could* remove our individual rights. The reason that case failed was because we were still expecting a deal and no one knew what would be in that deal, ergo it could not be said definitively that leaving the EU would remove our individual rights

However a no-deal exit blows that out the water. It removes our rights wholesale, and the Crown has no powers to do that, unless expressly authorised by Parliament via the  enactment of  a statute to that effect.

So the legal argument is that deliberate prorogation to see us crash out without a deal and without the express authorisation of our elected parliament is against the consitution. Moves are afoot to make this legal challenge

Interesting times indeed. Let's hope common sense prevails soon

 

 

With Boris in charge I wouldn't hold your breath Schtive

[Highgate]

Just now, Carl Sagan said:

I think most of these are using supposed opposition to "no deal" as a veneer to coat their opposition to Brexit. If you can't leave unless there's a deal, you effectively give the EU a veto on us ever leaving. Most of the country seems to have accepted that and there's been a running majority to leave on 31st October for months in the regular Opinium survey when that question is asked:

If those stats are accurate then a second referendum, once it becomes clear that Brexit means 'a no deal' Brexit, should hold no fear for Brexitieers.  It would simply be a rubber stamping exercise that would settle the argument for good. 

[FindernRam]

34 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Remainers have been trying to obstruct our leaving because making those decisions is what Parliament is for. It's representative democracy.

Except it is no longer representative. Every remainer MP in a leave constituency should immediately resign and stand again on a remain ticket, except they won't of course. Even worse are the jump ship rebels, you should be required to stand again when you no longer are a member of the party you canvassed for.

 

30 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It removes our rights wholesale

Just what rights are we losing? Apart from being ruled by a foreign band of self important wallet stuffing non-entities. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

4 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

Except it is no longer representative. Every remainer MP in a leave constituency should immediately resign and stand again on a remain ticket, except they won't of course. Even worse are the jump ship rebels, you should be required to stand again when you no longer are a member of the party you canvassed for.

 

Just what rights are we losing? Apart from being ruled by a foreign band of self important wallet stuffing non-entities. 

Personally I don’t think it’s ever been representative but that isn’t really what it means, is it?

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

"Parliament to be suspended!" Don't believe the hype of the broadcast media and their remainer friends. We're entering party conference season when Parliament doesn't sit anyway. All this does is extend that period for 4 days. It finally brings to an end the second-longest parliamentary sitting in history, with the government long-since running out of legislation to bring in because Theresa May was so terrified of a new Queen's Speech and had nothing to say. At least the vacuum in leadership is over.

The remainers are using every possible constitutional device in the book, and inventing new ones with Speaker Bercow on their side, to try to prevent the Brexit referendum being honoured. They now have a regime in power that is equally steadfast in trying to use the constitution to its advantage to ensure this thing gets done on 31st October and the country can finally move on with much more important things.

ITV's Robert Peston penned an interesting assessment of it this morning: 

 

I'm surprised by your views on this mess@Carl Sagan, you always struck me as one of the more sensible posters on here.

How do you, let alone "PM" Johnson plan to deal with Irish Border question in the event of a No Deal Brexit?

There is no detail. There is no plan. Johnson and his extremist buddies are playing with people's lives. I wouldn't even be surprised if Johnson, Cummings, Mogg etc would welcome an escalation in tensions in Northern Ireland as it would allow them to play the strongmen as they try to boost nationalistic sentiment in England.

There is so much damning evidence of how Johnson is a incoherent imposter, I'm surprised you give him any sort of kudos.

Almost half of the country were upset by the EU referendum result and angry by the lies told throughout the campaign.

But the leave side told us throughout how leaving would be fine, how we could have our cake and eat it, how the EU needed us more than we needed them, how the deal would be the easiest thing ever, how not a shot was fired (assuming we ignored the one that killed Jo Cox by a nutter who discovered his views were becoming more mainstream).

When you are been told all this by conmen, chancers and liars like Johnson, Davies, Mogg, Banks, IDS etc, you can't blame remainers for been rather worried about things may actually pan out.

If I worked for a firm who did most of it's business in the EU, I would be seriously worried today.  If I worked for a firm who did most of it's business with firms, that did most of their business with the EU, I would also be seriously worried.

If I was worked for a hedge fund who had spent the last 3 years betting against the UK and/or a privately rich disaster capitalist with no conscience, I would be rubbing my hands with glee.

The poor and desperate who were tricked into voting for Brexit are about to discover who the real elite are.

[Uptherams]

2 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

I think most of these are using supposed opposition to "no deal" as a veneer to coat their opposition to Brexit. If you can't leave unless there's a deal, you effectively give the EU a veto on us ever leaving. Most of the country seems to have accepted that and there's been a running majority to leave on 31st October for months in the regular Opinium survey when that question is asked:

 

That's how any referendum being posed should be, excluding don't know... obviously. Instead, those championing a second referendum wanted the choice to be No deal, the current governments deal or remain. Splitting the leave vote so Remain gets the biggest share. They think the rest of us are stupid enough to fall for that ?

[Highgate]

Just now, Carl Sagan said:

I think most of these are using supposed opposition to "no deal" as a veneer to coat their opposition to Brexit. If you can't leave unless there's a deal, you effectively give the EU a veto on us ever leaving. Most of the country seems to have accepted that and there's been a running majority to leave on 31st October for months in the regular Opinium survey when that question is asked:

I think that's unfair on a lot of people opposed to 'no deal'.  I think most people would agree that if a majority of people in the UK want to leave the EU without a deal as opposed to staying in it, then that is exactly what should happen.

I think what is actually worrying people right now is whether the majority of the UK actually would choose leaving with no deal vs remaining in the EU. And I'm not talking about those who are more interested in preserving the sanctity of the holy referendum or whatever but simply No Deal vs Remain, which would you choose, as of today. 

In what scenario could you not leave unless there was a deal? (thereby given the EU an effective veto on the UK leaving)  Well in the case that the UK population doesn't actually want to leave in that manner....in which case they simply shouldn't anyway, regardless of what previous referendums have said.  

[Highgate]

Just now, Uptherams said:

That's how any referendum being posed should be, excluding don't know... obviously. Instead, those championing a second referendum wanted the choice to be No deal, the current governments deal or remain. Splitting the leave vote so Remain gets the biggest share. They think the rest of us are stupid enough to fall for that ?

When it becomes a No Deal scenario....just a simple referendum   No Deal  vs  Remain.   No split vote.  If no deal wins ...game over.  Argument finished and the UK (and Ireland for that matter) can start picking up the pieces.  Sorry, I mean can start exploring exciting new opportunities. ?

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

That's how any referendum being posed should be, excluding don't know... obviously. Instead, those championing a second referendum wanted the choice to be No deal, the current governments deal or remain. Splitting the leave vote so Remain gets the biggest share. They think the rest of us are stupid enough to fall for that ?

That sounds fair. The only problem is that the people voting for this have no idea how any of the options would actually pan out. Bit like the last one really.

What % of those eligible have any idea about trade tariffs, WTO terms, the differences between the EU vs the Euro vs the single market. They all know about the EU trying to ban our British bendy bananas though, and lots of other stories Johnson made up whilst been paid to be a liar in Brussels.

[AndyinLiverpool]

13 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

That's how any referendum being posed should be, excluding don't know... obviously. Instead, those championing a second referendum wanted the choice to be No deal, the current governments deal or remain. Splitting the leave vote so Remain gets the biggest share. They think the rest of us are stupid enough to fall for that ?

I thought the government’s deal was akin to staying in. So it’s the remain vote that would be split. ?

[Spanish]

8 minutes ago, Highgate said:

When it becomes a No Deal scenario....just a simple referendum   No Deal  vs  Remain.   No split vote.  If no deal wins ...game over.  Argument finished and the UK (and Ireland for that matter) can start picking up the pieces.  Sorry, I mean can start exploring exciting new opportunities. ?

much as though I don't want you gives to leave I think you've had the vote on leave or stay, it was badly done but that's it.  The vote should now be on how leave is achieved otherwise the ones wanting an organised departure will feel they have to vote no deal.  What an effing mess

[ariotofmyown]

I'm reminded now of the laughable debate between Jeremy Hunt and Johnson on ITV a few weeks back with a handpicked audience and zero scrutiny.

A man asked about what guarantees he would have for his business/job in the event of a No Deal Brexit. I remember him well as he was black and wondered what he thought of Johnson's "watermelon smiles" line.

Johnson gave a usual waffling answer with zero detail and the guy did not have any fruit based smile by the time the answer was given. He was clearly not re-assured in the slightest.

Later on in the debate, Johnson was been his usual comical self, ie talking over Hunt and evading questions by being "funny" and the camera cut to the black guy I mentioned above. He was chuckling along with no qualms, even though the subtext of the answer to his question had been "I couldn't give a fk about peasants like you, I just wanna be world king like I was always supposed to be".

I knew then we were screwed.

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Way more important than Brexit are questions about climate change and stewarding the planet, about how artificial intelligence is going to transform our lives and the world and producing effective strategies to handle that, and even about establishing our place in space as a species so that humanity survives.

Here's a fascinating profile of Dominic Cummings from CNN that (pleasantly) surprised me by talking about issues such as this: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/21/uk/dominic-cummings-profile-gbr-intl/index.html

 

The job of Parliament is to govern the country effectively which atm is solving the question of the initial withdrawal agreement as quickly as possible.