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The Politics Thread 2019

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11 hours ago, 1967Ram said:

An interesting interview in The Guardian, which you may wish to read, about how the danger of white supremacy was recognised, but ignored, ten years ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/07/white-supremacist-terrorism-intelligence-analyst

 

Read that too. Very interesting, especially coming from a conservative republican too. There must be a big chunk of such Americans appalled by Trump and what the GOP have become.

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3 hours ago, McRamFan said:

This is the view from the USA, gives you an idea of how this is rising to the surface.

https://time.com/5647304/white-nationalist-terrorism-united-states/

It's not just the USA, remember NZ and the white van man in London.

That isn't 'the view' from the USA, that is 'a view' from the USA.

Cant argue with facts and figures though.

The interesting part for me is where the fact that the El Paso shooter said it was nothing to do with Trump but that seems to be brushed aside, pretty much the opposite to when Islamic Jihadists say that their crimes are committed in the name of their religion.

It's strange how far people will bend to make stories fit their narrative.

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2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

The interesting part for me is where the fact that the El Paso shooter said it was nothing to do with Trump but that seems to be brushed aside, pretty much the opposite to when Islamic Jihadists say that their crimes are committed in the name of their religion.

Where was that said?

Doesn't seem to be covered in his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_El_Paso_shooting

Seems like the only people are his parents https://www.cbsnews.com/news/el-paso-shooting-parents-of-suspected-el-paso-tx-shooter-patrick-crusius-distance-themselves-from-sons-alleged/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/accused-el-paso-shooters-family-says-he-was-influenced-and-informed-by-people-we-do-not-know-11565124735

Please share the link to his statement, I would like to read more about what he said.  Because I have read that his 'manifesto' actually draws down on the ideas spouted by Trump and Fox News.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/el-paso-suspect-patrick-crusius/index.html

 

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28 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Where was that said?

Doesn't seem to be covered in his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_El_Paso_shooting

Seems like the only people are his parents https://www.cbsnews.com/news/el-paso-shooting-parents-of-suspected-el-paso-tx-shooter-patrick-crusius-distance-themselves-from-sons-alleged/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/accused-el-paso-shooters-family-says-he-was-influenced-and-informed-by-people-we-do-not-know-11565124735

Please share the link to his statement, I would like to read more about what he said.  Because I have read that his 'manifesto' actually draws down on the ideas spouted by Trump and Fox News.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/el-paso-suspect-patrick-crusius/index.html

It was in the previous article you linked us to

 

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7 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Being lazy here and not really researching the facts here but how many white supremacists attacks have there been over them 10 years and how many deaths have they led to?

I can think of 3 or 4 high profile attacks but are there many that are going unreported?

Every time there are Islamic terrorist attacks the media cant be quick enough to point out that these are isolated incidents and dont represent the views held by the majority of muslims, is the same line given following white supremacist attacks?

Not sure what you're getting at? Are you complaining that the media aren't reporting the amount of mass shootings committed by white supremacists, or that they're not being identified as white supremacist attacks in the first place. Also if every white supremacist attack isn't reported as such, then the media don't need to point out the attacks are an isolated incident and doesn't represent the views of all white people or is it more specifically other white supremacists.

It may help if many politicians, especially in the USA, stopped claiming the perpetrators were suffering from mental health problems instead of calling them out to what they are, white supremacists. Don't recall that many politicians labelling people with mental issues after Islamic attacks.

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38 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Not sure what you're getting at? Are you complaining that the media aren't reporting the amount of mass shootings committed by white supremacists, or that they're not being identified as white supremacist attacks in the first place. Also if every white supremacist attack isn't reported as such, then the media don't need to point out the attacks are an isolated incident and doesn't represent the views of all white people or is it more specifically other white supremacists.

It may help if many politicians, especially in the USA, stopped claiming the perpetrators were suffering from mental health problems instead of calling them out to what they are, white supremacists. Don't recall that many politicians labelling people with mental issues after Islamic attacks.

Yes I'm getting at the fact that people are falling over themselves to distance Islamic Jihadists from muslims but cant wait to link white supremacists to Donald Trump, it's really quite ridiculous.

FWIW both are heinous crimes and the reasons behind what is driving the perpetrators to do it needs to be fully investigated. 

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1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes I'm getting at the fact that people are falling over themselves to distance Islamic Jihadists from muslims but cant wait to link white supremacists to Donald Trump, it's really quite ridiculous.

FWIW both are heinous crimes and the reasons behind what is driving the perpetrators to do it needs to be fully investigated. 

Isn't one of the main reasons given as to why certain followers of Islam commit these heinous crimes, is that they have been radicalized by the hate preached by various imams. So one can only sumise that any white supremacist, if not likewise fully radicalized, will have at the very least have a feeling of empowerment to commit their crimes, by the rhetoric of  numerous leading figures. With Trump being one of the main protagonists

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4 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Isn't one of the main reasons given as to why certain followers of Islam commit these heinous crimes, is that they have been radicalized by the hate preached by various imams. So one can only sumise that any white supremacist, if not likewise fully radicalized, will have at the very least have a feeling of empowerment to commit their crimes, by the rhetoric of  numerous leading figures. With Trump being one of the main protagonists

I thought the official line was its nothing to do with Islam?

I'm aware of the holy book promoting killing (although I will be honest and say I've never actually read this but have heard various quotes) but I'm not aware of any leading figures promoting murder...I guess it will come out in the media when they are charged with inciting murder?

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4 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Isn't one of the main reasons given as to why certain followers of Islam commit these heinous crimes, is that they have been radicalized by the hate preached by various imams. So one can only sumise that any white supremacist, if not likewise fully radicalized, will have at the very least have a feeling of empowerment to commit their crimes, by the rhetoric of  numerous leading figures. With Trump being one of the main protagonists

IMHO the difference between Islamic terrorists and white supremacists are the the former are organised around their interpretation of religion whilst the latter are generally lost lonely individuals looking for someone to blame for their crappy lives. 

Good article in yesterdays Guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/el-paso-dayton-left-men-jordan-peterson

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12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I thought the official line was its nothing to do with Islam?

I'm aware of the holy book promoting killing (although I will be honest and say I've never actually read this but have heard various quotes) but I'm not aware of any leading figures promoting murder...I guess it will come out in the media when they are charged with inciting murder?

If the President of the USA openly tells his own people that Mexicans are flooding into America to cheat, rob and rape. He may not have said the words kill them but the vile hate he spouted was certainly enough of an incitement, as shown by the El Paso massacre.

What he said may not be classified by law as an incitement to murder. But he like many others who preach hatred to others know how to incite their supporters to commit violence, while not committing a crime themselves.

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2 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

If the President of the USA openly tells his own people that Mexicans are flooding into America to cheat, rob and rape. He may not have said the words kill them but the vile hate he spouted was certainly enough of an incitement, as shown by the El Paso massacre.

What he said may not be classified by law as an incitement to murder. But he like many others who preach hatred to others know how to incite their supporters to commit violence, while not committing a crime themselves.

I dont really know the statistics to know if he is preaching hatred or just relaying facts to the public.

As far as I am aware Trump is trying to sort the perceived problem by legitimate means rather than inciting violence. 

From what I see it is only the left that seems to be encouraging violence. Maybe I do have a biased opinion though.

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1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont really know the statistics to know if he is preaching hatred or just relaying facts to the public.

As far as I am aware Trump is trying to sort the perceived problem by legitimate means rather than inciting violence. 

From what I see it is only the left that seems to be encouraging violence. Maybe I do have a biased opinion though.

Maybe. 

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1 hour ago, maxjam said:

IMHO the difference between Islamic terrorists and white supremacists are the the former are organised around their interpretation of religion whilst the latter are generally lost lonely individuals looking for someone to blame for their crappy lives. 

Good article in yesterdays Guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/el-paso-dayton-left-men-jordan-peterson

There's no difference between either group of indoctrinated murderers. No matter how some people try to portray them.

 

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9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

But the media dont point out that the white supremacists dont represent the views of white people.

I've never heard anyone say Islamic jihadists represent every Muslims views, just that they seem to follow certain teachings of their holy book, unfortunately that discussion gets shut straight down.

I take it you mean the views of the vast majority of white people.  People know that already, why would the media waste time stating the obvious? 

I think you are right about the motivations of religious extremists being something of a taboo subject. 

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I dont really know the statistics to know if he is preaching hatred or just relaying facts to the public.

As far as I am aware Trump is trying to sort the perceived problem by legitimate means rather than inciting violence. 

From what I see it is only the left that seems to be encouraging violence. Maybe I do have a biased opinion though.

Based on that last post alone I'd say that's a pretty safe assertion.  But then we are all a mixtures of various prejudices and biases, some just more extreme and doggedly adhered to than others.  The entirely objective and unbiased observer of events doesn't appear to exist.

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3 hours ago, maxjam said:

IMHO the difference between Islamic terrorists and white supremacists are the the former are organised around their interpretation of religion whilst the latter are generally lost lonely individuals looking for someone to blame for their crappy lives. 

Good article in yesterdays Guardian; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/el-paso-dayton-left-men-jordan-peterson

You know you are lost when Jordan Peterson is the only person making sense to you 😂

I'm not disagreeing with your point of view that they are 'lost lonely individuals', but I think you could say that of many young jihadists recruits too.   Equally you could say that White Supremacists are organizing around their particular interpretation of human evolution that leads them believe that people with lighter skin are superior to everyone else.

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4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I thought the official line was its nothing to do with Islam?

I'm aware of the holy book promoting killing (although I will be honest and say I've never actually read this but have heard various quotes) but I'm not aware of any leading figures promoting murder...I guess it will come out in the media when they are charged with inciting murder?

Oh you meant the quran, the book that god sent the archangel Gabrial to give to Muhammad the same Gabrial who told Mary she was preggers with Jesus and was also described as the guardian angel of Israel.

With you mentioning a holy book that promotes murder I wrongly assumed you were referring to the bible. The one that as the second man on earth killing the third man on earth. But god didn't seem to perturbed by this as there is a number of other  murderers throughout the bible.

Never read either book , in fact I've never read any religious book, unless Dan Brown's Angels and Demons counts. Just going on what I was force feed at school.

Isn't religion a wonderful invention, the biggest cause of death around the world.

 

 

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5 hours ago, 1of4 said:

Oh you meant the quran, the book that god sent the archangel Gabrial to give to Muhammad the same Gabrial who told Mary she was preggers with Jesus and was also described as the guardian angel of Israel.

With you mentioning a holy book that promotes murder I wrongly assumed you were referring to the bible. The one that as the second man on earth killing the third man on earth. But god didn't seem to perturbed by this as there is a number of other  murderers throughout the bible.

Never read either book , in fact I've never read any religious book, unless Dan Brown's Angels and Demons counts. Just going on what I was force feed at school.

Isn't religion a wonderful invention, the biggest cause of death around the world.

You see I think this is where the argument breaks down because other completely irrelevant things start getting thrown into the mix.

How many terrorist atrocities in recent years have had any sort of link to christianity or the bible?

By the way, I'm not defending either here, I am not religious in any way shape or form and agree with your last paragraph.

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