The Politics Thread 2019

[MaltRam]

8 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

You keep making a lot of presumptions about me. All wrong but ay ho, lets keep things as you say civilized.

As for screaming racism. Where have I mentioned race. Be told to return to your own country isn't racist, well thats what a lot of posters have claimed when Trump said something similar.

Presumptions: identify one, please?

Racism: you asked me if i was going to tell you go back to your own country, or some such guff. That's a fairly textbook accusation of racism in most company.

I don't give a monkey's what Trump, or anyone else on here has said. If you want to take issue with anything I've said, fine. If you want to take issue with what someone else has said, crack on, but leave me out of it.

[1of4]

1 hour ago, sage said:

One could argue that providing ineffective opposition is an enabler.

 

True, but no matter how good an argument the opposition gives to a government policy. Even if that argument gains the support of the majority of the general public. It can't stop the government of the day doing as it pleases.

[maxjam]

17 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

True, but no matter how good an argument the opposition gives to a government policy. Even if that argument gains the support of the majority of the general public. It can't stop the government of the day doing as it pleases.

True, but it does put pressure on the government to change policy or be less extreme through fear of losing power at the next election.

A recent example was UKIPs growing threat of taking Tory seats which forced them to agree to the referendum.

[Stive Pesley]

On 21/07/2019 at 08:45, maxjam said:

My underlying point has always been the same over my time posting on here; That the left has gone too far

Do you still consider yourself an abitrary centrist who sees both sides of all arguments? Because if so then it does seem odd how you continually defend the extreme right and never have a good word to say about anyone even vaguely left of centre. Whether you admit it or not, you are incredibly biased against one side. Or is it that you don't feel you need to point out that the right have gone too far because it's so blatantly obvious that fascism is rapidly on the rise?

[MaltRam]

I would suggest that both left and right have gone too far and have disappeared up there own fundamentals. They're no longer useful terms.

 

[cstand]

15 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Do you still consider yourself an abitrary centrist who sees both sides of all arguments? Because if so then it does seem odd how you continually defend the extreme right and never have a good word to say about anyone even vaguely left of centre. Whether you admit it or not, you are incredibly biased against one side. Or is it that you don't feel you need to point out that the right have gone too far because it's so blatantly obvious that fascism is rapidly on the rise?

If you want to call every day normal people fascists thats up to you but it's the out of control left that's making people choose sides.  

[1of4]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

True, but it does put pressure on the government to change policy or be less extreme through fear of losing power at the next election.

A recent example was UKIPs growing threat of taking Tory seats which forced them to agree to the referendum.

Ukips threat to the stability of the tory party and Cameron's ill advised attempt to stop a split in his party, by calling for a referendum. Is a very different scenario to how effective, or not, the official opposition party is on putting pressure on the government

 

[Highgate]

18 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

I would suggest that both left and right have gone too far and have disappeared up there own fundamentals. They're no longer useful terms.

Ok, but what are the useful terms then, and who do they apply to?  That's not an argumentative point on my part, just genuinely curious.  Definitions of 'left', 'right', 'socialist' 'communist' 'fascist' 'liberal' 'conservative' etc... seem to be in a constant state of change as well as meaning different things to different people.  Making everything confusing.

[MaltRam]

24 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Ok, but what are the useful terms then, and who do they apply to?  That's not an argumentative point on my part, just genuinely curious.  Definitions of 'left', 'right', 'socialist' 'communist' 'fascist' 'liberal' 'conservative' etc... seem to be in a constant state of change as well as meaning different things to different people.  Making everything confusing.

Very tricky question to answer, and as you allude to, difficult for one person to speak for many of differing views as to what label they would prefer.

[maxjam]

58 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Do you still consider yourself an abitrary centrist who sees both sides of all arguments? Because if so then it does seem odd how you continually defend the extreme right and never have a good word to say about anyone even vaguely left of centre. Whether you admit it or not, you are incredibly biased against one side. Or is it that you don't feel you need to point out that the right have gone too far because it's so blatantly obvious that fascism is rapidly on the rise?

If I had to pigeon hole myself I'd say I was more a center-leftie than anything else.  I believe in a fairer world, protecting the environment, renationalisation and the NHS amongst other things.  I do however also believe in small government, a (regulated) free market, free speech and ending censorship/excessive political correctness - which are all now seen as right-wing now-days ?

I don't see the rise in fascism as you see it, I see a rise in nationalism/populism by the silent moderate majority who vote against a rapidly changing world against their wishes.  I see the left moving further to the extremes, restricting conversation, reducing people to their base identity group and generally exacerbating the problem, forcing ever more people to vote for the likes of Trump.

I'd say I am currently politically homeless and am becoming increasingly alarmed by the open hostility shown by both the right and the left.

I'd agree that I am more biased against the left than the right at the moment but imo they are the worst offenders.  The left, far more than the right, seem to favour feelings over facts, identity politics and are more likely to believe what the media is telling them and scream fascist/nazi/racism/whatever when an argument heads south.  When the right act in a similar fashion, they get removed from social media.

An example of this is when you have a cheap pop at me and incorrectly say that AOC won 78% of the vote - you get 3 likes.  I reply with civility pointing out the facts, 15k vs 11k of a 20% turnout - it gets ignored.  I post an admittedly lazy article from The Daily Wire, I get called out at an agitator or shill.  Then when I post pretty much exactly the same things from Politico the conversation goes dead.  Similar with the Sargon video - you don't have to like him, you could skip through with the sound off, the video contains a lot of information from a lot of sources that can be fact checked and countered but it seems arguments are more easily shut down by simply calling me names.

I don't tend to criticise the right because that's what most people do on here, and a lot of it is silly name calling.  If you have looked through some of my recent posts I have stated that Trump is 'unstable' and 'not what I'd consider a true world leader'.  I think he's done some good things, a bit like Billy Davies did some good things here - but he too was poisonous and divisive.  Rather than join in slagging him off at every opportunity achieving nothing I'd rather the Democrats to get their act together to challenge him properly.  At this point 'The Squad' are virtually guaranteeing him another term however, so yeah I'm gonna go after them instead.

Anyway, I've decided I'm going to step away from posting for a bit, everyone is stuck in their ways and the petty arguing is getting tedious.  I've just spent the last month landscaping the garden and the kids are off for the next six weeks so I'm gonna enjoy the fruits of by labour and spend some time in the sun.  Can't promise not to be irritated by an obviously fake news/stats or outlandish statement though.  I wonder if the wifi reaches into the garden...

[Stive Pesley]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

An example of this is when you have a cheap pop at me and incorrectly say that AOC won 78% of the vote - you get 3 likes.  I reply with civility pointing out the facts, 15k vs 11k of a 20% turnout - it gets ignored. 

You got your wires crossed there. I was talking about Ilhan Omar who you claimed had an approval rating of 9% (but didn't mention that this was amongst swing state voters only). I pointed out that she won her seat in Congress with 78% of the vote in the largely white state of Minnesota (more than 260,000 votes vs her opponent on ~75,000 votes. And a high turnout too. You misread it as I was talking about AOC and posted the wrong stats.

Sorry I'm only just catching up on the weekend's posts

[GboroRam]

46 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If I had to pigeon hole myself I'd say I was more a center-leftie than anything else.  I believe in a fairer world, protecting the environment, renationalisation and the NHS amongst other things.  

?

Sadly I would agree with much of what you say here, but I don't think we share much in the way of politics. 

I see the rise of political correctness but don't rage against it. I'll support what's fair for everyone, so on balance I'll support some form of positive discrimination, in an attempt to equalise things. 

I personally don't see those things that offend you about the left, as particularly left wing aims. I think left politics is about class struggle, and it always was. The identity politics is a side issue that is turning away support for the Labour Party, but it is an important side issue that I think the left needs to get its head around. Sometimes people focus on it over and above real left politics, that is supporting working people improve their working conditions. 

And much of the objection raised against the behaviour of the left honestly feels like a response to issues raised by the right, like a bogeyman. I hear a lot about antifa on here as an example of what's wrong with "the left" but I've never heard of or seen them. 

Honestly I think most of the anti-Antifa rhetoric is generated by the people who stand to gain by demonising opposing fascism. If you're anti-Antifa in this country, considering there's no movement I can point to, I'd have to say you either are listening to people with an agenda, or have that agenda. Fa, to cancel the double negative. 

[maxjam]

34 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

You got your wires crossed there. I was talking about Ilhan Omar who you claimed had an approval rating of 9% (but didn't mention that this was amongst swing state voters only). I pointed out that she won her seat in Congress with 78% of the vote in the largely white state of Minnesota (more than 260,000 votes vs her opponent on ~75,000 votes. And a high turnout too. You misread it as I was talking about AOC and posted the wrong stats.

Yeah, just double checked and thats correct.  I think I misread as I was in and out all day and had been talking about AOC with someone else ?

[maxjam]

20 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Sadly I would agree with much of what you say here, but I don't think we share much in the way of politics.

Well thats politics in a nutshell, anyone that genuinely wants whats best for society has their own idea of how to achieve it.  My personal belief, as stated, is that the left have vacated the center ground and are the root cause of Trump et al.  I can't really blame Trump for being Trump, but I can criticise the left for being incoherent and not being strong enough to challenge him.

But here we are, and as they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat ?

And with that, its a good time for a break.  I'll just keep my eye on the transfer forum until the season kicks off.  COYR!

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Well thats politics in a nutshell, anyone that genuinely wants whats best for society has their own idea of how to achieve it.  My personal belief, as stated, is that the left have vacated the center ground and are the root cause of Trump et al.  I can't really blame Trump for being Trump, but I can criticise the left for being incoherent and not being strong enough to challenge him.

But here we are, and as they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat ?

And with that, its a good time for a break.  I'll just keep my eye on the transfer forum until the season kicks off.  COYR!

So Hilary Clinton moved too far to the left? And it was therefore the fault of the left that Trump won first the Republican nomination and ultimately the presidency? Couldn't agree less I'm afraid.

Enjoy your time out.

[ariotofmyown]

13 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Sadly I would agree with much of what you say here, but I don't think we share much in the way of politics. 

I see the rise of political correctness but don't rage against it. I'll support what's fair for everyone, so on balance I'll support some form of positive discrimination, in an attempt to equalise things. 

I personally don't see those things that offend you about the left, as particularly left wing aims. I think left politics is about class struggle, and it always was. The identity politics is a side issue that is turning away support for the Labour Party, but it is an important side issue that I think the left needs to get its head around. Sometimes people focus on it over and above real left politics, that is supporting working people improve their working conditions. 

And much of the objection raised against the behaviour of the left honestly feels like a response to issues raised by the right, like a bogeyman. I hear a lot about antifa on here as an example of what's wrong with "the left" but I've never heard of or seen them. 

Honestly I think most of the anti-Antifa rhetoric is generated by the people who stand to gain by demonising opposing fascism. If you're anti-Antifa in this country, considering there's no movement I can point to, I'd have to say you either are listening to people with an agenda, or have that agenda. Fa, to cancel the double negative. 

Well you might be ok Jack, but down here in the home counties, my life is made a misery by those godamn Antifa clowns. When I go into London it's even worse. They are the greatest threat to the native people of the uk. Finally we are going to get a PM like Trump who will call these "watermelon smilers" out for what they are.

The left has gone way way too far in supporting equal rights for non-white males. You can't even openly abuse those "letterbox" women anymore. Unless you are PM.

Why can't the far left just be like the sane and moderate right, who, lest we forget, won the Brexit referendum without one single shot been fired.

[cstand]

14 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So Hilary Clinton moved too far to the left? And it was therefore the fault of the left that Trump won first the Republican nomination and ultimately the presidency? Couldn't agree less I'm afraid.

Enjoy your time out.

I totally agree with Maxjam but I love the left being in complete denial. Keep shouting fascist,  racist and worshipping terrorists all the time, it's so funny and stops them from being elected.

[cstand]

4 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well you might be ok Jack, but down here in the home counties, my life is made a misery by those godamn Antifa clowns. When I go into London it's even worse. They are the greatest threat to the native people of the uk. Finally we are going to get a PM like Trump who will call these "watermelon smilers" out for what they are.

The left has gone way way too far in supporting equal rights for non-white males. You can't even openly abuse those "letterbox" women anymore. Unless you are PM.

Why can't the far left just be like the sane and moderate right, who, lest we forget, won the Brexit referendum without one single shot been fired.

We have not won Brexit until it has been delivered hopefully Boris will get us over the line in October.

The vast majority of people who want a 2nd vote/stop Brexit are anti democratic left wing zealots they are a complete embarrassment to this country what more evidence do you need?

If the left get away with stopping Brexit it will empower them to do the same against any democratic vote they do not like, they are not socialists they are communists.

As for a shot not being fired the left folk who revere the IRA for its struggle for independence but do not afford the same admiration for Brexiteers who want their own independence are shocking, a perfect example of the left double standards and hypocrisy.

 

 

 

[MaltRam]

Here we go then...looking certain to be Boris.

It's going to be mental, this next 6 months.

[1967Ram]

36 minutes ago, Needlesh said:

Here we go then...looking certain to be Boris.

It's going to be mental, this next 6 months.

When BREXIT doesn't happen on 31st October it'll certainly get interesting