The Politics Thread 2019

[uttoxram75]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

See above post - Ilhan Omar's sympathies don't sit well with the average patriotic American, neither to AOC's more outlandish policies.

Understand that but its still only criticising policies at the end of the day. They believe they have  better policies for the American people so to just brand them as anti American is childish and not really what you'd expect from a world leader imo.

 

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Understand that but its still only criticising policies at the end of the day. They believe they have  better policies for the American people so to just brand them as anti American is childish and not really what you'd expect from a world leader imo.

They do say a lot of anti-American stuff though, sympathising with terrorists and promoting socialist policies are anti-American to the vast majority.

I've never said that Trump is a world leader in the true sense of the word.  I have said that Trump, Populism, Brexit, etc is what you get when the left push to far.  IMO the average person doesn't really care about politics to much so long as they are happy and left alone, when its starts effecting their lives they come out and vote.  When the left return to the middle and both sides actually start talking to each other again we'll all breath a little easier.

[dcfcfan1]

Trumps Rally was trash

AOC and Omar's are trash candidates

My take

[Highgate]

8 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 

Ilhan Omar and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are the most unpopular, they are pushing the Democrats to far to the left with their wild rhetoric;

https://www.axios.com/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-poll-democrats-2020-aeaa3771-f142-4059-b79e-1fed569dfdf9.html

AOC has made far to many gaffs to be considered credible and Ilhan Omar isn't going to win many friends by sympathising with ISIS and commenting on the worst terrorist atrocity committed on US soil as 'some people did something'.

It may be a crude strategy but Trump is positioning 'The Squad' front and center of the Democrat party as they are unelectable to the majority of the country.  All he has to do is not put his foot in his mouth and he'll walk the 2020 election...

So its all to play for then ?

How does any of this support your claim that they are anti American?  Even if their policies are not in line with the mainstream in what way is that hatred for their country?  Am I missing something?  Are you suggesting that any politician that suggests their country should be doing things differently hates their own country?  Sounds likes nonsense to me. 

And how can you say someone makes too many gaffs to be creidible, haven't you seen who is in the White House at the moment?  Obviously Republicans are appalled by AOC and there is a real possibility that the Democrats might split down the middle between the progressives, Sanders, AOC, Warren etc and the more traditional business orientated conservatives like Biden and Pelosi.

Inexperienced as she is, you are making a mistake if you aren't taking AOC seriously.

Having said (ranted) all that, despite the shift to the left for some Democrats I still fear Biden will get their nomination for 2020.  

[maxjam]

13 minutes ago, Highgate said:

How does any of this support your claim that they are anti American?  Even if their policies are not in line with the mainstream in what way is that hatred for their country?  Am I missing something?  Are you suggesting that any politician that suggests their country should be doing things differently hates their own country?  Sounds likes nonsense to me.

Sympathising with terrorists and promoting socialism as about as un-American as you can get.  I'll bet good money that by referring to 9/11 as 'some people did something' a lot of Americians will have seen that as Ilhan Omar hating America.
 

24 minutes ago, Highgate said:

And how can you say someone makes too many gaffs to be creidible, haven't you seen who is in the White House at the moment?  Obviously Republicans are appalled by AOC and there is a real possibility that the Democrats might split down the middle between the progressives, Sanders, AOC, Warren etc and the more traditional business orientated conservatives like Biden and Pelosi.

Inexperienced as she is, you are making a mistake if you aren't taking AOC seriously.

AOC not only comes out with repeated gaffs but misunderstands basic politics.  She got elected on a technicality and will since be remembered as a person pushing socialism, a trillion dollar green new deal and more importantly to the people that will need to re-elect her, the person that cost her constituency 25k+ jobs.  If she's still in a job at the next election, I'll be surprised.

 

Trump, as with the Tories in the UK tell you everything you need to know about the current state of the left, both are weak and vulnerable yet the Democrats/Labour can't make any meaningful inroads.  As unstable as Trump may be, he is still far better than the alternative at present.

[Highgate]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

Sympathising with terrorists and promoting socialism as about as un-American as you can get.  I'll bet good money that by referring to 9/11 as 'some people did something' a lot of Americians will have seen that as Ilhan Omar hating America.
AOC not only comes out with repeated gaffs but misunderstands basic politics.  She got elected on a technicality and will since be remembered as a person pushing socialism, a trillion dollar green new deal and more importantly to the people that will need to re-elect her, the person that cost her constituency 25k+ jobs.  If she's still in a job at the next election, I'll be surprised.

Trump, as with the Tories in the UK tell you everything you need to know about the current state of the left, both are weak and vulnerable yet the Democrats/Labour can't make any meaningful inroads.  As unstable as Trump may be, he is still far better than the alternative at present.

Sorry @maxjam , that's absolute garbage!  First of all you seem to shifting the goalposts from them 'hating America' to being 'un-American' which means what exactly .....just an atypical American?   What values are un-American?  All American need to conform to the same values now? I thought they championed liberty and freedom over there.

In a recent Gallup poll, 43% of Americans said they thought some form of socialism would be a good thing for the US.  Does that mean that 43% of Americans hate the US?  Was FDR himself a rampant un-American President in your view?

Those congresswomen promote policies that the right perceives as socialism because they think those polices are the best way forward for US and it's citizens.  They suggest them because they are trying to help their constituents.  Argue with the sense of the policies if you wish, but to claim that they are making those suggestions out of hatred for their country (or that it proves their hatred) is an outrageous insinuation.

As for suggesting that (I presume you mean Omar) is a terrorist sympathizer. That's a very serious allegation, what's your evidence?  Why do people interpret some of her statements as such.  For example  '“The US's current strategy of nation-building and regime change is a proven failure, and has created the vacuums that allow terrorism to grow and thrive.”   Aren't such statements a criticism of US policy rather than sympathetic to terrorists?

As for AOC, her Green New Deal is just intended to get the urgent discussion started on what needs to done to avoid environmental calamity.  Long overdue.  It's an uphill struggle considering the make-up of the Senate and the White House

 

 

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

They do say a lot of anti-American stuff though, sympathising with terrorists and promoting socialist policies are anti-American to the vast majority.

I've never said that Trump is a world leader in the true sense of the word.  I have said that Trump, Populism, Brexit, etc is what you get when the left push to far.  IMO the average person doesn't really care about politics to much so long as they are happy and left alone, when its starts effecting their lives they come out and vote.  When the left return to the middle and both sides actually start talking to each other again we'll all breath a little easier.

I don't really follow American politics so ill bow to your knowledge.

As regards the bolded bit in your post, I like left policies, I like a National Health Service, I'd like the Rail, Gas, Electric and Water supply to be publically owned and accountable, I like the prisons, police, fire, ambulance and military ran for the benefit of the country and not private profit.

Would that make me anti British?

[maxjam]

13 hours ago, Highgate said:

Sorry @maxjam , that's absolute garbage!  First of all you seem to shifting the goalposts from them 'hating America' to being 'un-American' which means what exactly .....just an atypical American?   What values are un-American?  All American need to conform to the same values now? I thought they championed liberty and freedom over there.

Not really, as I've stated 'the squad' are promoting traditionally un-American socialist policies and they also say things that can and are viewed upon by many as hating America (sympathising with terrorists and making light of 9/11 being a prime example).

There is nothing wrong with championing un-American policies however, free country 'n all that.  My point is that given Trump is their only opposition, anything remotely center left should give them a landslide victory, but all indications are that the Democrats have shifted to far to the left and have become unelectable.   The Democrats themselves are inching towards a fractured party as the moderates realise that 'The Squad' are pushing ideas that most Americans don't agree with.

 

13 hours ago, Highgate said:

Those congresswomen promote policies that the right perceives as socialism because they think those polices are the best way forward for US and it's citizens.  They suggest them because they are trying to help their constituents.  Argue with the sense of the policies if you wish, but to claim that they are making those suggestions out of hatred for their country (or that it proves their hatred) is an outrageous insinuation.

Again, I never said that their policies were motivated out of hatred. 

 

13 hours ago, Highgate said:

As for AOC, her Green New Deal is just intended to get the urgent discussion started on what needs to done to avoid environmental calamity.  Long overdue.  It's an uphill struggle considering the make-up of the Senate and the White House

AOCs Green New Deal was ridiculous though and completely unachievable.  I'm all for starting a conversation but a lot of it was cooked up in la-la land. She displays basic levels of ignorance all the time, such as costing NYC 25k+ jobs and $30bn being a prime example. 

 

13 hours ago, Highgate said:

As for suggesting that (I presume you mean Omar) is a terrorist sympathizer. That's a very serious allegation, what's your evidence?  Why do people interpret some of her statements as such.  For example  '“The US's current strategy of nation-building and regime change is a proven failure, and has created the vacuums that allow terrorism to grow and thrive.”   Aren't such statements a criticism of US policy rather than sympathetic to terrorists?

By stating 'some people did something' when referring to  9/11, refusing to give a straight answer to 'Are you pro-al Qaeda?' asking for leniency in ISIS sentencing, refusing to condemn recent antifa attacks, often using anti-Semitic language amongst a host of other things is probably why a lot of people think she at least in part hates America and why she only has a 9% favourability rating.

[maxjam]

13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

I don't really follow American politics so ill bow to your knowledge.

As regards the bolded bit in your post, I like left policies, I like a National Health Service, I'd like the Rail, Gas, Electric and Water supply to be publically owned and accountable, I like the prisons, police, fire, ambulance and military ran for the benefit of the country and not private profit.

Would that make me anti British?

No, but if you start sympathising with the 7/7 terrorists and regularly make anti-Semitic comments whilst pushing a socialist agenda people might view that as un-British.

[AndyinLiverpool]

25 minutes ago, maxjam said:

No, but if you start sympathising with the 7/7 terrorists and regularly make anti-Semitic comments whilst pushing a socialist agenda people might view that as un-British.

Presumably, you wouldn't view it that way.

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Presumably, you wouldn't view it that way.

Just so we're straight, are you implying that I'm an anti-Semitic, terrorist sympathising socialist?

[AndyinLiverpool]

Just now, maxjam said:

Just so we're straight, are you implying that I'm a anti-Semitic, terrorist sympathising socialist?

No. I had you down as a patriot and an advocate of free speech. If free speech is a part of what it is to be British, describing someone's opinions as un-British, would be un-British.

[maxjam]

18 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

No. I had you down as a patriot and an advocate of free speech. If free speech is a part of what it is to be British, describing someone's opinions as un-British, would be un-British.

Very much in favour of free speech, bad ideas should always be challenged by good ideas.  However both here and in the US we effectively have 2 party systems currently with very weak right-wing parties/leaders in power, IMO a center left party would win a massive majority at the next election if it got its act together, unfortunately the left are running wild in the US with what are viewed as traditionally un-American policies making them unelectable.

The coming year could see Trump win again and both the Democrats and Labour rip themselves apart as they are unable to contain their fringe elements.  It is my belief that overly restrictive PC culture and social media twitterati are driving society to breaking point, but thats a topic for another thread!

[Highgate]

On 19/07/2019 at 12:50, maxjam said:

The tweets as per most of Trumps tweets lacked tact but I personally didn't find them racist and tbh thought they were fair comment towards 4 seemingly America hating congresswomen, at least 2 of whom are massively unpopular ?

That's what you said in case there is any confusion.  'Seemingly' to you presumably.  To support your claim you mentioned their 'Un-American socialist' policies.  Why wouldn't their policies be motivated by hatred if they hate America as you say? 

So let's not pretend you haven't said they hate America. In doing so you've stepped way across the line from reasonable criticism of elected politicians into nonsensical Trumpian trash talking. 

I agree the Democratic Party is in danger of a split, it seems to be at something of a crossroads with two different factions pulling it in two opposite directions.  But when you look at 2016, Sanders was seen as an anomaly by many, a dangerous outlier with radical policies.  In 2020 many Democratic Presidential candidates have been emulating his policy proposals. So I don't necessarily assume that the conservative wing of the Democratic Party is in the ascendancy. 

AOC's popularity seems to have taken a hit in her own constituency, largely thanks to her part in Amazon canceling plans of it's proposed second headquarters in New York.  Amazon looked for huge tax breaks, she opposed it.  Personally I'd love to see all cities and countries stand up to the multi-nationals like this instead of trying to enrich them further. Currently everyone is playing into their hands by competing against one another for their jobs.  The big picture nobody benefits from this pattern apart from the multi-nationals themselves.  She stuck up for her stated principles but yeah it will surely cost her votes at the next election.  Nationwide however I still think she is popular among the progressive wing of the party. 

As for the Green New Deal, it's just a proposal.  Sure it has flaws, but it's the start of the discussion.  A discussion that needs to take place in the US and every country so future generations can actually have a decent future.  Well done her for proposing it.  Incidentally your $1 trillion dollar price tag is the same price tag that the Congressional Budget Office puts on 5-6 years of Trump tax cuts for the super wealthy in lost revenue, or less than the price of one Iraq War.  I know which one of those 3 makes the most sense to me. 

Omar is certainly and advocate of the 'blowback' theory of American foriegn policy.  Her 'some people did something' was ill-advised in my opinion but it should be heard in the context of her entire speech which was in no way pro Al Qaeda.  Despite this Trump shamefully and dangerously suggests she is proud of Al Qaeda, clearly putting her life in danger.  Her request for leniency for Somalian ISIS prisoners was due to the fact that she felt they were young, impressionable and not really aware of what they were doing.  A long sentence would create hardened terrorists whereas some leniency could change their path away from terrorism.  A very debatable and risky strategy, but not one motivated by a support for terrorism.  By 'anti-semitic language'  do you simply mean critical of the state of Israel?  Surely you are not confusing the two ?

 

[AndyinLiverpool]

17 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Very much in favour of free speech, bad ideas should always be challenged by good ideas.  However both here and in the US we effectively have 2 party systems currently with very weak right-wing parties/leaders in power, IMO a center left party would win a massive majority at the next election if it got its act together, unfortunately the left are running wild in the US with what are viewed as traditionally un-American policies making them unelectable.

The coming year could see Trump win again and both the Democrats and Labour rip themselves apart as they are unable to contain their fringe elements.  It is my belief that overly restrictive PC culture and social media twitterati are driving society to breaking point, but thats a topic for another thread!

Viewed by whom? I am very interested in your use of these terms 'un-American' and 'un-British'. Surely in a country built on dissent, ideas that go against the grain are the most 'American' thing possible. The land of the free cannot be truly so if people are not free to be American. The right in the US has a long tradition of hamstringing those who do not toe-the-line. It starts with 'un-American' and proceeds to ostracism, restraint of trade and so on. What is it that's going on with these 4 elected representatives? 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

By stating 'some people did something' when referring to  9/11, refusing to give a straight answer to 'Are you pro-al Qaeda?' asking for leniency in ISIS sentencing, refusing to condemn recent antifa attacks, often using anti-Semitic language amongst a host of other things is probably why a lot of people think she at least in part hates America and why she only has a 9% favourability rating.

But her district is like 75+% white people, and she won her seat with 78% of the vote, so she must be doing something right.

Sounds to me a bit like you're just regurgitating the Trump supporter's rhetoric on the subject? Are you going to tell us she married her brother next?

 

[dcfcfan1]

TBH Omar and AOC are just as american as Trump or anyone else

 

"Send them back" is an appalling chant

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

No, but if you start sympathising with the 7/7 terrorists and regularly make anti-Semitic comments whilst pushing a socialist agenda people might view that as un-British.

Thanks, so we agree that socialist policies are not anti or un British.

I presume its the same in the US?

[maxjam]

22 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

But her district is like 75+% white people, and she won her seat with 78% of the vote, so she must be doing something right.

Sounds to me a bit like you're just regurgitating the Trump supporter's rhetoric on the subject? Are you going to tell us she married her brother next?

Uhm, no.  Almost 80% of voters stayed home during her win and she won with just 15k votes compared to 11k for her opponent.

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/new-york-house-district-14-primary-election

She has since made numerous gaffs and her rating in various polls is now down to around 20%, imho it will be a huge surprise if she gets re-elected next time.

[maxjam]

30 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Viewed by whom? I am very interested in your use of these terms 'un-American' and 'un-British'. Surely in a country built on dissent, ideas that go against the grain are the most 'American' thing possible. The land of the free cannot be truly so if people are not free to be American. The right in the US has a long tradition of hamstringing those who do not toe-the-line. It starts with 'un-American' and proceeds to ostracism, restraint of trade and so on. What is it that's going on with these 4 elected representatives? 

Un-American as in the majority of people won't vote for it - socialism isn't in line with traditional American values.

In the land of the free you are allowed to run for government with socialist policies but as they are viewed upon as un-American by the majority you won't get into office.  Even in the era of Trump, people would still rather have him than socialism - the Democrat party as a whole aren't even sure its the right way to go ?

I guess the 2020 election is when we'll find out.