The Politics Thread 2019

[Highgate]

5 minutes ago, McRainy said:

No. It. Isn't. 

If it is to be a No Deal, then in all sincerity I don't know how you can think that's what people were actually voting for in 2016.

[Uptherams]

9 minutes ago, CWC1983 said:

Yip, jobs come and go.

The only problem with your model is that the jobs that will come will be minimum wage in large warehouses that stock these cheap forgein goods, and the ones lost will be our manufacturing industry.  

 

 

No, many jobs are created in a variety of sectors when a company tries to access and succeed in a new marketplace. You can pretend otherwise if you like. Also when you open your market up to more competition, you find new means both indirectly and directly of accessing the markets in which there has been an influx of imports from. The world economy is currently 30 times the size of the UK's and that gulf will continue to rapidly grow. There are many opportunities for our nation, to sell goods and services, in particular to the emerging economies. 

The UK will increase the size of it's domestic advanced manufacturing. 

[i-Ram]

5 minutes ago, Highgate said:

If it is to be a No Deal, then in all sincerity I don't know how you can think that's what people were actually voting for in 2016.

I voted leave, on an unconditional basis. I had the option to vote remain, again on an unconditional basis. If a deal can’t be achieved by 31 October l will be very happy to leave on a no deal basis. So too I suspect will everyone else who voted leave, and knows @eddie.

[ronnieronalde]

6 minutes ago, McRainy said:

The correct procedure would be to campaign to rejoin once we have left. 

Then maybe you'll get another referendum in about forty years time. 

I agree.

You must see that I've been fairly consistent in saying get us a deal and get us out.

Whether I agree with the result or not is a different story.

What I'm both pissed of at and worried about is a) how the country let itself get to this stage and b) the consequences the country "may" face by pushing through a no deal at any cost.

Note the use of "the country" and not "we".

This isn't being done in my name. None of it.

I can't be enthusiastic about something I don't believe is right.

[Igorlegend11]

58 minutes ago, CWC1983 said:

Agree, but the whole debate at the time was hijacked by the NHS bus and Farage scare tactics.

The remain campaign didnt bring up relevant issues, or if they did they didnt do it loud enough. 

I cant remember the detailed level of debate back then that we are having now. 

Remain based campaign and economic doom that would befall the UK within weeks of voting leave.   

As we changed PM ( despicable running for the hills by an embarassed Cameron ) very few fiscal measures were undertaken and the economy carried on just fine. 

 

[cstand]

5 minutes ago, Highgate said:

If it is to be a No Deal, then in all sincerity I don't know how you can think that's what people were actually voting for in 2016.

The vote was very clear leave or remain.

If we voted leave we would have to negotiate a new trade deal with the EU if not possible it would mean WTO rules. 

[Highgate]

2 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I voted leave, on an unconditional basis. I had the option to vote remain, again on an unconditional basis. If a deal can’t be achieved by 31 October l will be very happy to leave on a no deal basis. So too I suspect will everyone else who voted leave, and knows @eddie.

Seems unrealistic to me.  Everyone ?

[Rev]

23 minutes ago, McRainy said:

No. It. Isn't. 

I agree. 

I voted Leave, chiefly over concerns about the decisions the EU could make that affected us with little consultation, chiefly TTIP.

The fact such a wide ranging deal could be negotiated behind closed doors, with our own elected representatives only allowed to glimpse the document under oath not to repeat or record any part of it was a red flag for me. 

I assumed we would leave the EU, and strike a trade deal once we'd left, with an amount of short term pain in the interim.

It never even crossed my mind what would happen to the Irish border, but in fairness it seems I'm not alone in that, our politicians didn't think of it either!

Regulatory alignment between NI and the other countries is all important when it comes to customs and borders it seems, but less so when it concerns Gay rights and a woman's right to choose.

If we had another vote, I'd probably tick Remain now TTIP is no longer an issue, if only because I'm sick of this issue pushing other critical issues to the sidelines.

 

[McRainy]

8 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

If we had another vote, I'd probably tick Remain now TTIP is no longer an issue

It'll come back.

ISDS is already causing havoc; for example, the Romanian government is currently being sued for 2% of its GDP by a Canadian mining company, because environmental protection laws prevent the mine from expanding. 

[Highgate]

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop. We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.”

A quote from voteleavetakingcontrol.org own website before the 2016 referendum.

Doesn't sound like they were suggesting a No Deal Brexit then. Leave voters can hardly be blamed for not considering a serious possibility at the time.

Incidentally on the next page they claimed that Turkey were lined up to join the EU and they even slyly hinted that Syria and Iraq were intending to follow.

[Rev]

2 minutes ago, McRainy said:

It'll come back.

ISDS is already causing havoc; for example, the Romanian government is currently being sued for 2% of its GDP by a Canadian mining company, because environmental protection laws prevent the mine from expanding. 

No doubt you're right, but at least as part of a trading bloc they'd be easier Cherry's to pick before it came to us.

I'd have no confidence in a Boris/Hunt negotiated deal with the US not having the same outcome but quicker.

[GboroRam]

I'm getting tired of the petty bickering that's going on. 

Thread closed for a short hiatus until people remember to have a bit more respect for fellow Rams posting. Frankly if you all continue in this vein I'll ask Daveo to pull the topic again. 

[David]

8 paragraphs deep into a plea for peace I realised I’m wasting my time so I will keep it short and simple.

There is no referendum, this topic will remain. Members will not. 

This is your warning.

If you enjoy using dcfcfans.uk for following Derby County with a side of politics, do not risk losing your membership over a disagreement on the EU which leads to insults and arguing.

We have an ignore function which I highly recommend, if a member irritates you, place them on ignore, no need to tell them you are placing them on ignore. 

[ariotofmyown]

Most the posters on here are reasonably well informed and/or have positions on Brexit that will never change.

The Brexit vote was decided by the larger silent majority in the middle who could have voted either way.

You never hear much from these people as they are mostly silent, but I'm pretty sure they would have shifted now more towards remain when they saw what a mess the whole thing has become, including Johnson as PM.  (Imagine the Leaver outcry if the US ambassador situation had played out with a European country!)

They were told the deal with the EU would be the easiest deal ever. It really hasn't turned out that way. People vote to protect their jobs and their income. I'm sure plenty of people would quietly switch to remain now.

That seems like democracy to me.

[David]

15 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Most the posters on here are reasonably well informed and/or have positions on Brexit that will never change.

I feel like the more I read the less informed I feel. 

I blame the politicians.

There is one good thing that has come from all this Brexit talk, I’m starting to enjoy the Chris Martin topics again.

[ariotofmyown]

27 minutes ago, David said:

I feel like the more I read the less informed I feel. 

I blame the politicians.

There is one good thing that has come from all this Brexit talk, I’m starting to enjoy the Chris Martin topics again.

The irony of living in the information age.

Were we better off when we could only get our news from few potentially trustworthy sources and own experience vs now when anyone, including bots, can distribute anything?

Is critical thought and debate possible online? It is on football matters as we see on here often. Probably not for politics though.

[David]

11 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The irony of living in the information age.

Were we better off when we could only get our news from few potentially trustworthy sources and own experience vs now when anyone, including bots, can distribute anything?

Is critical thought and debate possible online? It is on football matters as we see on here often. Probably not for politics though.

Impact of social media on politics, now that’s a topic right there.

We see it in football with transfer rumours how gullible fans can be over who I like to call bedroom dwellers.

Scary to thing the fate of our country is being decided off information shared on social media with little to no fact checking taking place.

Some of that information coming from politicians based on complete lies.

Most of this topic is arguing over that information.

And this is the future. 

When elections roll round and you hear things like don’t waste your vote, people fought and died for you right to vote, I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

[ariotofmyown]

4 minutes ago, David said:

Impact of social media on politics, now that’s a topic right there.

We see it in football with transfer rumours how gullible fans can be over who I like to call bedroom dwellers.

Scary to thing the fate of our country is being decided off information shared on social media with little to no fact checking taking place.

Some of that information coming from politicians based on complete lies.

Most of this topic is arguing over that information.

And this is the future. 

When elections roll round and you hear things like don’t waste your vote, people fought and died for you right to vote, I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

Things move so quickly too. About 2 years ago Trump was a laughing stock in the UK and the pathetic lies he came out with were ridiculed by pretty much everyone. That seems like some wonderful past now though as his successful tactics are copied over here and people have to align with them as he seems to be pro-no deal brexit.

I'm not sure where we go with all this. The mainstream media seem to be aping the social media lies to try and stay relevant, when what is called for is balanced and reasoned fact-based reporting.

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm not sure where we go with all this. The mainstream media seem to be aping the social media lies to try and stay relevant, when what is called for is balanced and reasoned fact-based reporting.

It's not just staying relevant - it's about staying solvent. A boring truthful story does not get the engagement that an inflated, controversial, distortion of the truth story gets.

Is it just capitalism reaching it's ugly conclusion? Everything has a price, and if it has no price then there is no place for it. There is no money in balanced fact-based reporting. If there were, then it would no longer  be balanced (as it would be skewed one way or another by the financial implications)

Sad to say the old cliche is full of truth. Not everything that counts can be counted.

 

[Wolfie]

43 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's not just staying relevant - it's about staying solvent. A boring truthful story does not get the engagement that an inflated, controversial, distortion of the truth story gets.

Is it just capitalism reaching it's ugly conclusion? Everything has a price, and if it has no price then there is no place for it. There is no money in balanced fact-based reporting. If there were, then it would no longer  be balanced (as it would be skewed one way or another by the financial implications)

Sad to say the old cliche is full of truth. Not everything that counts can be counted.

 

Agreed. It's all about advertising-induced sensationalist clickbait and I hate it.

It's why I tend to rely mainly on the BBC for news & analysis. Yes, I know it has it's faults but while ever it is accused fairly equally of being Left & Right wing at the same time, it must be doing something right.

Still can't stand Laura Kuennsberg, though......