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The Politics Thread 2019

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3 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

If all the looney brexiteers (not all brexiteers are looney, some are liars, tax avoiders and crisis financiers) followed his lead, it would thin the herd out.  That way ukip would implode, because they all ruined their supporters would have ruined their ballot papers.  It is simply genius, the ukip take themselves out.

Or simply he didn't think it through.

Fortunately some of us Brexiteers aren't as dumb as the politicians, although I can't claim to have never been a liar or a looney.

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2 hours ago, ossieram said:

Fortunately some of us Brexiteers aren't as dumb as the politicians, although I can't claim to have never been a liar or a looney.

I'm sick of the narrative that by Voting leave you're either thick, racist, on the make or self centered, as if that covers all the reasons to vote Leave.

I voted Leave, purely based on the the TTIP agreement that Europe was pursuing on our behalf.

In the end Donald killed that off, and if I'd have known that at the time I'd have voted differently, but that's life!

 

 

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24 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

I'm sick of the narrative that by Voting leave you're either thick, racist, on the make or self centered, as if that covers all the reasons to vote Leave.

I voted Leave, purely based on the the TTIP agreement that Europe was pursuing on our behalf.

In the end Donald killed that off, and if I'd have known that at the time I'd have voted differently, but that's life!

 

 

I just laugh stuff like that off, especially when you see the state of some of the prats outside Westminster waving their Euro flags.

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30 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

I'm sick of the narrative that by Voting leave you're either thick, racist, on the make or self centered, as if that covers all the reasons to vote Leave.

If you can't spot the nazi salute (hint - there isn't one) just imagine people holding phones up to video the march are making nazi salutes to fit your agenda instead!

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3 hours ago, McRamFan said:

If all the looney brexiteers (not all brexiteers are looney, some are liars, tax avoiders and crisis financiers) followed his lead, it would thin the herd out.  That way ukip would implode, because they all ruined their supporters would have ruined their ballot papers.  It is simply genius, the ukip take themselves out.

Or simply he didn't think it through.

Its local elections - not exactly important from a Brexit perspective (or any other perspective if I'm being honest). Not really sure why ruining their ballot papers in a general election would really change anything either - UKIP and the greens got 5 million votes between them in 2015 and won a grand total of 2 MPs - virtually all of those ballot papers could have been ruined and it wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference. UKIP are not a force anymore now Nigel left them and even if they were they don't win seats in general elections. You are going to have to thin the herd a whole lot to get what you want - more than 17,000,000 people voted to leave - almost 1.5 million more than remain.

I currently ruin my ballot paper because I don't support any of the parties (I'm not one of the older generation who think it is acceptable to vote for a party, regardless of their policies, just because you don't like the other guy). There is also no chance of the Conservatives ever losing this constituency - I could take a dump on my ballot paper and it would have more chance of doing something than voting for one of the other candidates.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If you can't spot the nazi salute (hint - there isn't one) just imagine people holding phones up to video the march are making nazi salutes to fit your agenda instead!

Who are the liars?

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6 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If you can't spot the nazi salute (hint - there isn't one) just imagine people holding phones up to video the march are making nazi salutes to fit your agenda instead!

It's very easy to get pictures of people doing nazi salutes, it's only when somebody shows a video of the same scene that you see they were waving, clapping or pointing at something. And what is her problem with flute bands?

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5 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Its local elections - not exactly important from a Brexit perspective

People will want to send a message to the 3 main parties that they feel like they have been shafted. Apart from taking to the streets and kicking off, it's the only way to get their message across for a lot of people.

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36 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

I'm sick of the narrative that by Voting leave you're either thick, racist, on the make or self centered, as if that covers all the reasons to vote Leave.

I voted Leave, purely based on the the TTIP agreement that Europe was pursuing on our behalf.

In the end Donald killed that off, and if I'd have known that at the time I'd have voted differently, but that's life!

 

 

I don't think everyone who voted leave is racist etc. I do however think enough of those who voted leave are racist and thats what swung the vote.

The stuff i have heard from people who voted leave makes me believe this.

Fed up of hearing about we should be free now, or foreigners stealing our jobs or Germany tried to take us over in the war now they are trying through the EU..and if anyone mentions funny shaped bananas again i might lose my mind.

No one has told me one reason that we should leave that makes sense to me. There may well be good reasons that cleverer people than i can comment on but i haven't heard one yet. 

Im not clever enough to argue it, so you will no doubt shoot me down.

I recall a call to local radio after the vote saying that they voted leave because they were fed up of illegal immigrants. That worries me.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, ossieram said:

People will want to send a message to the 3 main parties that they feel like they have been shafted. Apart from taking to the streets and kicking off, it's the only way to get their message across for a lot of people.

Not enough people will ruin their ballot paper for it to make a difference and most of the seats will be won by Labour and the Tories - won't make any difference.

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11 hours ago, eddie said:

Which bit of the last paragraph? I deliberately included two polar opposites. Do you think it will be more neutral, perhaps Brexit having far less of an effect on the rest of Europe in comparison to what I am suggesting?

Quote

What is possible is that a 'bad Brexit' (if such a thing occurs) leading to <insert problems here> will see an end to the rise of extreme right-wing parties in some parts of Europe and a renewal of more liberal governance, because people will be able to say "Look what happened to poor Britain when they tried to burn it all down". Of course, the complete opposite may be true - a united but independent Britain basking in a Utopian future, insulated from the upheavals occurring over that narrow stretch of sea separating us from the mainland.

Whilst i agreed with all the rest, i don't agree with either of the above options tbh.

Option 1

bad brexit leadding to a more liberal governance - i don't think that those tempted by right wing agendas are generally too troubled by facts. in fact one thing i have learned on here is that most folk seem to stick to their ingrained beliefs and ideologies and see things in the world about them through their own ideologically tinted specs. Facts, events, even bundles of total nonsense seem to be siezed upon as justifications for a peculiarly subjective world-view rather, than a careful consideration of evidence leading to an objective reasonable conclusion. People will cling to a particular belief despite whatever mountain of evidence exists to the contrary.

Option 2

A united but independent Britain basking in a Utopian future, insulated from the upheavals occurring over that narrow stretch of sea....beautifully put but ce n'est pas possible. We cannot exist in a little bubble, and why would we want to.....(unless of course we just happened to be part of the wealthy powerful and selfish elite). Of course, the other problem is that the future looks a bit wobbly. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, reveldevil said:

I'm sick of the narrative that by Voting leave you're either thick, racist, on the make or self centered, as if that covers all the reasons to vote Leave.

I voted Leave, purely based on the the TTIP agreement that Europe was pursuing on our behalf.

In the end Donald killed that off, and if I'd have known that at the time I'd have voted differently, but that's life!

 

 

I'm sick of the narrative that the EU is the cause of no more  wars.

Not a product of it.

The more complex and undemocratic the economic control gets - the deeper the control is needed, the more complex and woven the financial problems get. And the way they control economies is not a left wing idea at all. Quite the oposite. It imposes austerity. It stifles growth, it takes the power from a country to make crucuial ecomonic decisions. But that is the European Central Bank for you. Unelected, unaccountable and wrong. And these problems will be come ever more problematic if we don't take the Euro as our currency.

The MEPs at the European parliament have no manifestos, no promises to the people they are supposed to represent. They have little say, and little power.

Brexit isn't xenophobic. It's about trading with the world.

The TTIP agreement concerns me. Potentially the most undemocratic agreement ever.

And then we come to the narrative that Leave voters are thick. Intelligence is supposed to show through tolerance, open minds and debate. 

The Euopean Commission is not elected. It is not accountable to me or you. It is appointed. 

And those on the left should look at the undemocratic processes that are proudly paraded by the EU, and have another think.

The EU is a great idea. Wrongly, illegally and undemocratically implemented.

In my opinion.

Oh and then there's the way they crush Third World coutries. Restrict their econmies, whilst implementing stupidly high tariffs. I don't ducking like them.

 

Edited by Norman

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12 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Whilst i agreed with all the rest, i don't agree with either of the above options tbh.

Option 1

bad brexit leadding to a more liberal governance - i don't think that those tempted by right wing agendas are generally too troubled by facts. in fact one thing i have learned on here is that most folk seem to stick to their ingrained beliefs and ideologies and see things in the world about them through their own ideologically tinted specs. Facts, events, even bundles of total nonsense seem to be siezed upon as justifications for a peculiarly subjective world-view rather, than a careful consideration of evidence leading to an objective reasonable conclusion. People will cling to a particular belief despite whatever mountain of evidence exists to the contrary.

Option 2

A united but independent Britain basking in a Utopian future, insulated from the upheavals occurring over that narrow stretch of sea....beautifully put but ce n'est pas possible. We cannot exist in a little bubble, and why would we want to.....(unless of course we just happened to be part of the wealthy powerful and selfish elite). Of course, the other problem is that the future looks a bit wobbly. 

I also that we will get something 'in between' even in a no-deal scenario, because nothing lasts forever anyway, and reactions ultimately temper actions. It's called 'damping'. I was just having a flight of fancy. At the end of the day, so long as I can order my beloved Belgian beer, I'll be ok. Saying that, I'm growing to love the first British Trappist beer - Tynt Meadow, brewed by the Cistercian monks at Mount St Bernard Abbey, near Coalville.

http://www.mountsaintbernard.org/tynt-meadow-ale

In another life, I wouldn't have minded being a beer-brewing monk. One drawback - I'm an atheist.

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Can anybody please shed some light on an issue that is troubling me?

Jacob Rees-Mogg earlier today said that if Britain were 'forced' to take part in the forthcoming EU elections, British MEPs ought to make life as difficult as possible for the EU to function. He said, and I quote: "We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes".

Didn't he also say that Britain had no power within the EU when he said "the EU is a threat to British democracy and to the sovereignty of Parliament. We have to leave the EU in order to take back control".

So if Britain has no power, how can British MEPs disrupt anything, obstruct anything and veto anything?

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2 hours ago, Norman said:

I'm sick of the narrative that the EU is the cause of no more  wars.

Not a product of it.

The more complex and undemocratic the economic control gets - the deeper the control is needed, the more complex and woven the financial problems get. And the way they control economies is not a left wing idea at all. Quite the oposite. It imposes austerity. It stifles growth, it takes the power from a country to make crucuial ecomonic decisions. But that is the European Central Bank for you. Unelected, unaccountable and wrong. And these problems will be come ever more problematic if we don't take the Euro as our currency.

The MEPs at the European parliament have no manifestos, no promises to the people they are supposed to represent. They have little say, and little power.

Brexit isn't xenophobic. It's about trading with the world.

The TTIP agreement concerns me. Potentially the most undemocratic agreement ever.

And then we come to the narrative that Leave voters are thick. Intelligence is supposed to show through tolerance, open minds and debate. 

The Euopean Commission is not elected. It is not accountable to me or you. It is appointed. 

And those on the left should look at the undemocratic processes that are proudly paraded by the EU, and have another think.

The EU is a great idea. Wrongly, illegally and undemocratically implemented.

In my opinion.

Oh and then there's the way they crush Third World coutries. Restrict their econmies, whilst implementing stupidly high tariffs. I don't ducking like them.

 

You make some very good points about why people should have voted leave, if the ultra-capitalist likes of Johnson and Mogg had been on the remain side.

I saw the vote as 'remain in an imperfect capitalist EU' vs 'leave into chaos so Johnson, Mogg and friends could clear up'. 

As it happens, I'll be fine either way. If you are struggling to make ends meet, be very afraid. If Remainers don't do enough for you, then the leave leaders actively hate you.

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On 02/04/2019 at 12:20, Norman said:

Only if you have been a ducking idiot all your life.

The rest of us know the score. We earn more than the average bloke. We save.

From June 10th I will be a civil servant anyway. 

 

Your making a good start towards it then,, 

yes there are some you could level your sweeping judgment on but there are many who will work their arse off and never never have a pot to piss in , i will be going up and down ladders till I drop though I’m lucky enough to have the savvy to have put together a little business so I won’t be flat out to earn a living , some don’t have that wherewithal, it’s the luck of the draw with what your born with and brought up with

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9 hours ago, Norman said:

I'm sick of the narrative that the EU is the cause of no more  wars

I agree, surely it's got to be NATO that has kept peace in Europe rather than the EU

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32 minutes ago, Archied said:

Your making a good start towards it then,, 

yes there are some you could level your sweeping judgment on but there are many who will work their arse off and never never have a pot to piss in , i will be going up and down ladders till I drop though I’m lucky enough to have the savvy to have put together a little business so I won’t be flat out to earn a living , some don’t have that wherewithal, it’s the luck of the draw with what your born with and brought up with

Well said. Sometimes it not just how good you are, its how lucky you have been during your career too. Circumstances can affect all of us without us being able to do a damn thing about it.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, eddie said:

Can anybody please shed some light on an issue that is troubling me?

Jacob Rees-Mogg earlier today said that if Britain were 'forced' to take part in the forthcoming EU elections, British MEPs ought to make life as difficult as possible for the EU to function. He said, and I quote: "We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron’s integrationist schemes".

Didn't he also say that Britain had no power within the EU when he said "the EU is a threat to British democracy and to the sovereignty of Parliament. We have to leave the EU in order to take back control".

So if Britain has no power, how can British MEPs disrupt anything, obstruct anything and veto anything?

Individual MEPs themselves don't really have any power and the UK would have to rely on other countries agreeing with them to be able to vote anything down due to the small number of MEPs. The UK can veto a small number of items for stuff like the budget and taxation. We lose far more votes in the council than any other country though, so thats nice at least. 

The quote you provide from Rees-Mogg doesn't say anything about a lack of power either. The whole purpose of the EU is a united states of Europe, which is a threat to the sovereignty of parliament - he isn't wrong in this. The argument between the two sides is whether they think this would be a good thing or not - personally I am undecided on this issue.

I don't think it would be wise regardless of how we voted individually to be needlessly obstructive in the EU parliament considering the majority of issues can be voted through with what is essentially just a majority vote - they could equally make life very difficult for us if they so desired.

3 hours ago, Joe. said:

I agree, surely it's got to be NATO that has kept peace in Europe rather than the EU

The EU has nothing to do with peace in Europe. NATO is the main reason, but the fact that the two only major military powers now have nuclear weapons, Germany being divided until the 90s and the Russian collapse (they are not a threat militarily to Europe anymore) are also big factors. In either case unless you don't count the Balkans as part of Europe there has most definitely not been peace in Europe since World War 2 (that war was ended by NATO though).

Edited by GenBr

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