The Politics Thread 2019

[uttoxram75]

6 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Can this not be construed as animal cruelty. Labelling a poor lamb 86 points.

We know who we are 

we know who we are

sheepshagging bar stewards 

we know who we are 

??

 

[ossieram]

7 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Or they know loads more about the country than the people who were swayed by liars like Johnson, Farage, Johnson, Mogg, David "Brexit will be so easy" Davies.

Or they know what is wanted by the people that pay them back handers to look after their interests.

If you seriously believe that these people know more about the country or even care about anything other than their own interests, you are deluded. And that goes for the likes of Johnson and Farage as well.

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, ossieram said:

Or they know what is wanted by the people that pay them back handers to look after their interests.

If you seriously believe that these people know more about the country or even care about anything other than their own interests, you are deluded. And that goes for the likes of Johnson and Farage as well.

I know it's fashionable to say all mps are in it for themselves and are useless but it's just more classic sheep following and believing whatever people read in the right wing press.

The reason Brexit has been impossible to deliver is that a majority of mps think it will make the country worse off, but they don't want to obviously go against the wishes of their constituents. 

I am clearly super intelligent and used to read books, but even I admit that mps may know a little more than I do about EU tariffs, international trade etc etc.

The likes of Johnson and Mogg have been the problem here. They had to lie and play purely on people's emotions to win the referendum, now they look like fools as clear questions had never been considered. Cameron is even more of a fool for asking the people a question we were hopelessly under-qualified to answer.

Ask us if the May bank holiday should be moved to July. Or if the Queen should give over her properties to the National Trust. Not questions that really matter.

We elect people to make decisions on our behalf as we don't know the answers.

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I know it's fashionable to say all mps are in it for themselves and are useless but it's just more classic sheep following and believing whatever people read in the right wing press.

The reason Brexit has been impossible to deliver is that a majority of mps think it will make the country worse off, but they don't want to obviously go against the wishes of their constituents. 

I am clearly super intelligent and used to read books, but even I admit that mps may know a little more than I do about EU tariffs, international trade etc etc.

The likes of Johnson and Mogg have been the problem here. They had to lie and play purely on people's emotions to win the referendum, now they look like fools as clear questions had never been considered. Cameron is even more of a fool for asking the people a question we were hopelessly under-qualified to answer.

Ask us if the May bank holiday should be moved to July. Or if the Queen should give over her properties to the National Trust. Not questions that really matter.

We elect people to make decisions on our behalf as we don't know the answers.

Both sides lied, twisted the truth, mislead, etc...

• "Two thirds of manufacturing jobs were dependent on Europe" - figure is closer to 15%
• "As many Brits living elsewhere in the EU as there are other EU nationals in Britain” - 3.2m EU citizens in the UK, 1.2m UK citizens in EU countries
• "Brexit will lead to Scotland renewing calls for independence" - SNP (pro-independance) lost seats in an election since the vote. Is independence really what the Scots will vote for?

[RamNut]

50 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

We elect people to make decisions on our behalf as we don't know the answers.

....buts its become obvious that they don't either. 

[Stive Pesley]

11 hours ago, eddie said:

So Parliament will then be faced with the dilemma of accepting a no-deal exit or revoking Article 50

They could easily revoke A50 in a way that doesn't mean "cancelling Brexit" though. In fact it would probably be a wise idea if we were about to be forced out with no deal due to the government's incompetence

"We are faced with the choice of crashing out with a disastrous no deal or revoking Article 50 in order to go back to the drawing board and devise a new plan for Brexit that has cross-party support across the 4 countries of the UK. Only once we have a plan that we know we can pass in parliament will we re-invoke Article 50 and proceed with an orderly Brexit that works for everyone"

Let's not forget that the current deadlines are all down to our own stupidity

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Both sides lied, twisted the truth, mislead, etc...

• "Two thirds of manufacturing jobs were dependent on Europe" - figure is closer to 15%
• "As many Brits living elsewhere in the EU as there are other EU nationals in Britain” - 3.2m EU citizens in the UK, 1.2m UK citizens in EU countries
• "Brexit will lead to Scotland renewing calls for independence" - SNP (pro-independance) lost seats in an election since the vote. Is independence really what the Scots will vote for?

not sure how that can be accurately calculated, I am one of the few down here that are legally resident and there a lot that are very worried that their illegal status is going to bite them on the bum.  I suspect but have no proof that the figures are closer than those stated

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, Spanish said:

not sure how that can be accurately calculated, I am one of the few down here that are legally resident and there a lot that are very worried that their illegal status is going to bite them on the bum.  I suspect but have no proof that the figures are closer than those stated

Figures were grabbed from European Parliament document. I have no idea how the numbers were estimated/calculated.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/B-8-2017-0538_EN.pdf?redirect

[eddie]

51 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Both sides lied, twisted the truth, mislead, etc...

• "Two thirds of manufacturing jobs were dependent on Europe" - figure is closer to 15%
• "As many Brits living elsewhere in the EU as there are other EU nationals in Britain” - 3.2m EU citizens in the UK, 1.2m UK citizens in EU countries
• "Brexit will lead to Scotland renewing calls for independence" - SNP (pro-independance) lost seats in an election since the vote. Is independence really what the Scots will vote for?

I cannot dispute any of those figures. What I will say though is the 3.2 million EU citizens in the UK and many of the UK citizens living in the EU weren't even given the privilege of voting in the referendum, yet as far as possible physical displacement, rights of residence etc is concerned, they are the people who stand to be most affected. Now call me old fashioned, but I think that is an appalling state of affairs.

Leaving without a deal will cause many problems. On day 1, in our original thread, I said that the Irish border will be the biggest stumbling-block to any exit with the exception of one where we remained in the Customs Union and here we are, almost 3 years later, and that one thorny issue still remains the impossible hurdle to overcome.

Regarding 'what Scotland wants' - well, they want, by a ratio of 2:1, to remain in the EU. If Brexit goes badly, you can bet your bottom dollar that, given the choice of remaining in a fracturing UK or making their own way in the world won't be as straightforward a decision as you think. You can also be very sure that the EU would welcome them back on very favourable terms, just to rooster a snook at Westminster.

As soon as Scotland start to explore that avenue, logic suggests that perhaps questions about a united Ireland will be the next logical step in the process. After all, the DUP speak for about 36% of the population over there, and the Unionists in total polled only 47%. The longer time goes on, the greater will be the swing towards a united Ireland - that's simple demographics. Again, a lot of 'ifs and buts' enter the equation. Something like 70,000 people cross the border to work daily (both ways).

What is possible is that a 'bad Brexit' (if such a thing occurs) leading to <insert problems here> will see an end to the rise of extreme right-wing parties in some parts of Europe and a renewal of more liberal governance, because people will be able to say "Look what happened to poor Britain when they tried to burn it all down". Of course, the complete opposite may be true - a united but independent Britain basking in a Utopian future, insulated from the upheavals occurring over that narrow stretch of sea separating us from the mainland.

[eddie]

10 minutes ago, Spanish said:

not sure how that can be accurately calculated, I am one of the few down here that are legally resident and there a lot that are very worried that their illegal status is going to bite them on the bum.  I suspect but have no proof that the figures are closer than those stated

My mate Kev is a musician living in Mojaca, and he spends a lot of time travelling around Europe, returning to the UK at least once a month (he is a member of several touring bands - Christie, BC Sweet, Witch Cross and a couple of others) as well as performing in Spain, Germany, Denmark etc, and although he now has permanent Spanish residence, he's still not 100% sure of his future. Apparently he will require special licences to allow him to perform across Europe, and they cost a fortune. No licence, no can has pay.

[RamNut]

17 minutes ago, eddie said:

I cannot dispute any of those figures. What I will say though is the 3.2 million EU citizens in the UK and many of the UK citizens living in the EU weren't even given the privilege of voting in the referendum, yet as far as possible physical displacement, rights of residence etc is concerned, they are the people who stand to be most affected. Now call me old fashioned, but I think that is an appalling state of affairs.

Leaving without a deal will cause many problems. On day 1, in our original thread, I said that the Irish border will be the biggest stumbling-block to any exit with the exception of one where we remained in the Customs Union and here we are, almost 3 years later, and that one thorny issue still remains the impossible hurdle to overcome.

Regarding 'what Scotland wants' - well, they want, by a ratio of 2:1, to remain in the EU. If Brexit goes badly, you can bet your bottom dollar that, given the choice of remaining in a fracturing UK or making their own way in the world won't be as straightforward a decision as you think. You can also be very sure that the EU would welcome them back on very favourable terms, just to rooster a snook at Westminster.

As soon as Scotland start to explore that avenue, logic suggests that perhaps questions about a united Ireland will be the next logical step in the process. After all, the DUP speak for about 36% of the population over there, and the Unionists in total polled only 47%. The longer time goes on, the greater will be the swing towards a united Ireland - that's simple demographics. Again, a lot of 'ifs and buts' enter the equation. Something like 70,000 people cross the border to work daily (both ways).

What is possible is that a 'bad Brexit' (if such a thing occurs) leading to <insert problems here> will see an end to the rise of extreme right-wing parties in some parts of Europe and a renewal of more liberal governance, because people will be able to say "Look what happened to poor Britain when they tried to burn it all down". Of course, the complete opposite may be true - a united but independent Britain basking in a Utopian future, insulated from the upheavals occurring over that narrow stretch of sea separating us from the mainland.

Agree with everything apart from the last paragragh.

[Spanish]

13 minutes ago, eddie said:

My mate Kev is a musician living in Mojaca, and he spends a lot of time travelling around Europe, returning to the UK at least once a month (he is a member of several touring bands - Christie, BC Sweet, Witch Cross and a couple of others) as well as performing in Spain, Germany, Denmark etc, and although he now has permanent Spanish residence, he's still not 100% sure of his future. Apparently he will require special licences to allow him to perform across Europe, and they cost a fortune. No licence, no can has pay.

yep and as you previously mentioned we were excluded form voting on something that has a direct effect on our lives.  I cross a schengen border daily and I am concerned about what those 50 metres will look like eventually.  I am very happy with my life bar those 50 metres!

[eddie]

5 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Agree with everything apart from the last paragragh.

Which bit of the last paragraph? I deliberately included two polar opposites. Do you think it will be more neutral, perhaps Brexit having far less of an effect on the rest of Europe in comparison to what I am suggesting?

[eddie]

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

yep and as you previously mentioned we were excluded form voting on something that has a direct effect on our lives.  I cross a schengen border daily and I am concerned about what those 50 metres will look like eventually.  I am very happy with my life bar those 50 metres!

I cannot fathom that at all. Basically the Tory Party said "Well, if the people whom it will affect most are allowed to vote, then it will be a clear result to remain, so let's deprive them of a say entirely." I would be interested in the justification of that one fact from a leaver, because for the life of me, I cannot come up with one which doesn't include the phrase "Second-class citizen".

[McRamFan]

Check out @RogerHelmerMEP’s Tweet:

I think that is a brilliant idea.

[ossieram]

26 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Check out @RogerHelmerMEP’s Tweet:

I think that is a brilliant idea.

It is if you want to waste your vote because of a spoilt ballot paper. 

[McRamFan]

1 minute ago, ossieram said:

It is if you want to waste your vote because of a spoilt ballot paper. 

You miss the irony. 

[ossieram]

2 hours ago, McRamFan said:

You miss the irony. 

I do. Unless it's because a MEP is on about Brexit, but he is a UKIP member and wants out.

[Stive Pesley]

42 minutes ago, ossieram said:

I do. Unless it's because a MEP is on about Brexit, but he is a UKIP member and wants out.

He's ex-UKIP isn't he? Resigned amid an expenses scandal? Or was it his massage parlour scandal? Or was it his outspoken views on how the NHS should provide gay-conversion therapy? Or was it when he said homophobia was just a way of demonising those with "conventional views"? Or was it when he said that the fact the temperature dropped during an eclipse was proof that climate change is a myth?

What a guy!

 

[McRamFan]

59 minutes ago, ossieram said:

I do. Unless it's because a MEP is on about Brexit, but he is a UKIP member and wants out.

If all the looney brexiteers (not all brexiteers are looney, some are liars, tax avoiders and crisis financiers) followed his lead, it would thin the herd out.  That way ukip would implode, because they all ruined their supporters would have ruined their ballot papers.  It is simply genius, the ukip take themselves out.

Or simply he didn't think it through.