The Politics Thread 2019

[1of4]

On 01/07/2019 at 19:09, cstand said:

The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever.  

 

 

36 minutes ago, cstand said:

The factory that I worked in shutdown in 2007 I got on my bike and got another job.  Been on a company visit today been shown a nice shiny new factory that replaced the old outdated one which was we sold off five years ago. As one door shuts another opens, remainers doors are always shut.

As for tariffs you negotiate or as with the EU you act like gangsters and demand billions. 

Why do we need to negotiate on tariffs, when all the most successful countries in history traded in a free market?

[GboroRam]

It's naivety like this that's why it's impossible to get sensible straight answers. I leave brexit to the brexiters, your mess you sort it out. 

But of course the Brexit "party" have no interest in sorting anything out. Stand in Democratic elections complaining about lack of democracy, complain about travelling to strasbourg although that's where the job you went for is based, then turn their backs on the institute. I presume they will all be turning their backs on the salary and pension as well? 

I just hope I have time to get out before the inevitable crash. 

[Stive Pesley]

Quote

Jeremy Hunt has pledged to hand the farming and fishing industries a £6bn cash boost to help them cope with a no-deal Brexit if he becomes Prime Minister

Hang on what - I thought a no deal Brexit was supposed to be good for farmers and fishing industry? Now they need £6bn to help them cope with the thing that they all kept saying was a good thing

After his "sorry that your factory will close down but the people voted for it - oops" comment the other day I'm becoming convinced that Hunt's masterplan is to slowly troll leave voters into realising how monumentally stupid they've been

 

 

[eddie]

43 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

It's naivety like this that's why it's impossible to get sensible straight answers. I leave brexit to the brexiters, your mess you sort it out. 

But of course the Brexit "party" have no interest in sorting anything out. Stand in Democratic elections complaining about lack of democracy, complain about travelling to strasbourg although that's where the job you went for is based, then turn their backs on the institute. I presume they will all be turning their backs on the salary and pension as well? 

I just hope I have time to get out before the inevitable crash. 

I'm only surprised they didn't 'moon'.

[cstand]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

 

Why do we need to negotiate on tariffs, when all the most successful countries in history traded in a free market?

We are free to negotiate the deal we want and not to be dictated by the EU. 

[eddie]

3 minutes ago, cstand said:

You are free to negotiate the deal you want and not to be dictated by the EU. 

So naive.

[cstand]

3 minutes ago, eddie said:

So naive.

So true not naive Cameron tried to negotiate with the EU we got told by the EU we like your hard earned tax payers money but ignored us, if they had appreciated us we would not have voted out. 

[bigbadbob]

2 hours ago, cstand said:

How much does it cost to stable your EUnicorn over night?

About twice as much as it costs him to stable his high horse

[GboroRam]

2 hours ago, StivePesley said:

Hang on what - I thought a no deal Brexit was supposed to be good for farmers and fishing industry? Now they need £6bn to help them cope with the thing that they all kept saying was a good thing

After his "sorry that your factory will close down but the people voted for it - oops" comment the other day I'm becoming convinced that Hunt's masterplan is to slowly troll leave voters into realising how monumentally stupid they've been

 

 

How much per year does EU membership cost us (net?)? 

[McRainy]

5 hours ago, GboroRam said:

My choice would be remain in a bloc which harmonises standards and puts tariffs on those outside of the bloc. That way we put up barriers to substandard goods such as US chlorinated chicken while maintaining a semblance of a level playing field within the EU.

Except that isn't what happens. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/irish-farmers-furious-over-eu-south-american-deal-to-cut-tariffs-1.3940859?mode=amp

[eddie]

2 hours ago, cstand said:

So true not naive Cameron tried to negotiate with the EU we got told by the EU we like your hard earned tax payers money but ignored us, if they had appreciated us we would not have voted out. 

Even IF we were sploodging 18 billion up a wall each year, it is worth every penny because of the markets it gives us access to - especially given that today's news from the chancellor that leaving without a deal is going to cost FIVE TIMES that amount - and that's not going to be a one-off cost, of course. So losing all our trade deals at a stroke at a cost of five times our annual pre-rebate EU budget is what you voted for, is it? Of course you didn't (well, I assume that you aren't mental). You either voted for 'the easist deal in history', 'having our cake and eating it', 'we hold all the cards' or more probably 'We have heard enough from experts.... project fear'.

"If they had appreciated us we would not have voted out" - ? ? ?

 

[McRamFan]

8 hours ago, cstand said:

We are free to negotiate the deal we want and not to be dictated by the EU. 

Do you know how long trade deals take, I expect not.

6 hours ago, McRainy said:

Except that isn't what happens. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/irish-farmers-furious-over-eu-south-american-deal-to-cut-tariffs-1.3940859?mode=amp

I assume you stopped reading before you actually got to...

Brussels has estimated the deal will wipe out about €4 billion in annual customs duties on EU exports, securing preferential access for European goods and services to a region of more than 260 million people.

You have a choice where you buy your beef.  I cannot see Brazil serving up fillet steaks cheaper than Ireland, Scotland and England do, if they did I would be not tempted.  It may impact the processed food market, that is the bottom feeder of the food chain, so I am not too worried.

[Wolfie]

12 hours ago, 1of4 said:

 

Why do we need to negotiate on tariffs, when all the most successful countries in history traded in a free market?

You have to negotiate on tarrifs to get to a free trade position, since the default setting will be WTO 10% tariffs on most things.

[McRainy]

2 hours ago, McRamFan said:

Brussels has estimated the deal will wipe out about €4 billion in annual customs duties on EU exports, securing preferential access for European goods and services to a region of more than 260 million people.

You have a choice where you buy your beef.  I cannot see Brazil serving up fillet steaks cheaper than Ireland, Scotland and England do, if they did I would be not tempted.  It may impact the processed food market, that is the bottom feeder of the food chain, so I am not too worried.

Tariffs off EU exports, so German cars, then. That benefits Irish farmers how, exactly?

The claim was that the EU harmonises standards, puts up tariffs to keep out substandard goods, and maintains a level playing field within the EU. That is clearly not the case. 

You may not be worried, because you think you can still choose where to buy your beef, but the article was not about your consumer choices, it was about the livelihoods of Irish beef farmers, which are threatened by this deal. 

[McRamFan]

1 hour ago, McRainy said:

You may not be worried, because you think you can still choose where to buy your beef, but the article was not about your consumer choices, it was about the livelihoods of Irish beef farmers, which are threatened by this deal. 

No they are not.  How much does it cost to produce and ship a ton of beef from Ireland compared to from Brazil? Start there and try again with the argument.  Like  I said, processed food maybe impacted, have you forgot the horse meat lasagnas that where on the shelves a few years ago.  Also why are there no noises from the UK farmers, oh wait a magic unicorn will sort that.

[jono]

12 hours ago, cstand said:

We are free to negotiate the deal we want and not to be dictated by the EU. 

What all on our own with no leverage ? There is stuff about the EU that is dreadful, but when you "deal" you don't always get what you want. negotiating jointly with increases our clout in the world. 

Yeah, lets get really tough with China or India, we'll show em what doing a deal is all about  ? its like going out for a fight with a water pistol and everyone else has machine guns.

[eddie]

I see that the latest magic panacea to win Bonkers Boris the votes of the blue rinse brigade is to do away with increases in 'sin taxes', i.e. reduce tax on tobacco, sugary drinks and alcohol. Will that approach appeal to anybody arart from the pathologically stupid? Coming next - flat earth acceptance, intelligent design and the denial of climate change, no doubt.

Jon Ashworth sums it up nicely...

Quote

“This is extraordinary even by Boris Johnson’s standards. On the same day that Cancer Research UK is warning of the rising cancer threat of obesity, and with his own cheerleader Matt Hancock supporting a plan to strengthen the obesity strategy, Johnson wants to water down the plan to tackle it.

“He has serious questions to answer about the role of corporate lobbyists for the soft drinks and tobacco industries in his campaign.

“Boris Johnson has shown that his priority is representing the interests of his wealthy supporters, with no concern for the health and wellbeing of the general public.”

 

[eddie]

46 minutes ago, jono said:

What all on our own with no leverage ? There is stuff about the EU that is dreadful, but when you "deal" you don't always get what you want. negotiating jointly with increases our clout in the world. 

Yeah, lets get really tough with China or India, we'll show em what doing a deal is all about  ? its like going out for a fight with a water pistol and everyone else has machine guns.

Canada not happy...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/canada-is-refusing-to-roll-over-its-eu-trade-agreement-for?ref=hpsplash

[McRainy]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

No they are not.

I'm sure they will be relieved by your reassurances. 

If you want to believe that the structures and institutions of the EU have the best interests of ordinary working people at heart, then that's up to you. I have suggested that that is far from the case, because of the ways in which it enables the corporate elite to pursue their agenda of removing the democratic shackles to their wealth and power. These are issues which go far beyond the minutiae of specific trade deals.

I only mentioned the deal on beef because it is an example which directly contradicts claims that were being made by another poster. 

[Stive Pesley]

40 minutes ago, eddie said:

I see that the latest magic panacea to win Bonkers Boris the votes of the blue rinse brigade is to do away with increases in 'sin taxes', i.e. reduce tax on tobacco, sugary drinks and alcohol. Will that approach appeal to anybody arart from the pathologically stupid? Coming next - flat earth acceptance, intelligent design and the denial of climate change, no doubt

He probably sees it as a win/win. He gets the kickback from the corporate lobbyists AND he thinks it will win him votes amongst the "poor people" who consume the most fags/booze/junk food.

On the face of it - it's true that "sin taxes" disproportionately affect those on lower incomes - but it's a disastrous idea. The whole point of taxing these things is to increase tax take to fund the NHS whilst simultaneously improving the health of the nation so that the NHS is not overcome.