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The Politics Thread 2019

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4 hours ago, eddie said:

Please explain to me what actual, real, tangible benefits there will be when we leave the EU. I must either be too thick to understand or my unfeasibly high IQ is causing me to over-analyse things and consequently I am missing the clarity, the certainty that others appear to be blessed with.

I'm serious - enlighten me.

 

Explain what you mean by 'tangible benefits', and specifically, for whom. 

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eddie
5 hours ago, McRainy said:

Explain what you mean by 'tangible benefits', and specifically, for whom. 

I have deliberately left it open-ended, but let's be a little more specific. Benefits to the 99% of the population who aren't Disaster Capitalists.

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11 hours ago, GboroRam said:

. How could we actually sell more chickens

Fastest, cheapest and most efficient meat to produce.

We also already produce quite a high % of the chicken we eat, and poultry probably the simplest (and quickest) sector of the agricultural industry to increase production in.

No matter how much of a doom mongerer you are with regards to brexit, people will still buy food, if there was a recession people don't stop eating but they may change their eating habits, you drop more expensive meats, steak etc, and eat more cheaper white meat.

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eddie
28 minutes ago, Joe. said:

Fastest, cheapest and most efficient meat to produce.

We also already produce quite a high % of the chicken we eat, and poultry probably the simplest (and quickest) sector of the agricultural industry to increase production in.

No matter how much of a doom mongerer you are with regards to brexit, people will still buy food, if there was a recession people don't stop eating but they may change their eating habits, you drop more expensive meats, steak etc, and eat more cheaper white meat.

Assuming, of course, that food can still be imported in the quantities it is now. Approximately 50% of the food we eat is imported, and of that, 60% is from the EU and the remainder is from the rest of the world.

Perhaps the time is coming when the Tory leadership candidates will start marketing possibl Brexit food shortages as a tangible 'health benefit' for the nation.

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1 hour ago, Joe. said:

Fastest, cheapest and most efficient meat to produce.

We also already produce quite a high % of the chicken we eat, and poultry probably the simplest (and quickest) sector of the agricultural industry to increase production in.

No matter how much of a doom mongerer you are with regards to brexit, people will still buy food, if there was a recession people don't stop eating but they may change their eating habits, you drop more expensive meats, steak etc, and eat more cheaper white meat.

Read this and rethink.  By read it I mean the whole think and not to a point where you find a single section of words where you can take it out of context.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/03/intensive-chicken-mega-farms-feed-uk-poultry-industry-head-richard-griffiths

Yes it can be done cheaper, if you follow the USA route.  However food poisoning in the USA is huge, and if that was replicated in the UK, the NHS would collapse.  Then BoJo could sell it off to his cousins.

Quote

The US reports higher rates of illness from food borne illness than in the UK. Annually, 14.7% (48m) of the US population suffer from an illness, versus 1.5% (1m) in the UK. This is nearly ten times the percentage of population. [see note 3 below]

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/

Just for fact checking, we have been in deficit for a while.

https://www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Articles/2016/6/UK-less-self-sufficient-for-poultry-2821542W/

No matter how simpleton brexiteers are, there are people out there listening to what industry is saying, and know that a magical unicorn is not going to appear to make things better.

Like Eddie, I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the UK will be better off out of the biggest and most effective trading block, how will the average working class person will be better off, how will we get better trade deals than we do now. 

 

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42 minutes ago, eddie said:

Assuming, of course, that food can still be imported in the quantities it is now. Approximately 50% of the food we eat is imported, and of that, 60% is from the EU and the remainder is from the rest of the world.

Perhaps the time is coming when the Tory leadership candidates will start marketing possibl Brexit food shortages as a tangible 'health benefit' for the nation.

Food will be imported still maybe we will export less and that will find its way into the home market (not necessarily better/worse and not necessarily more unhealthy/healthy), some products may be more expensive some won't. As I said peoples eating habits might have to change

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Read this and rethink.  By read it I mean the whole think and not to a point where you find a single section of words where you can take it out of context.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/03/intensive-chicken-mega-farms-feed-uk-poultry-industry-head-richard-griffiths

Yes it can be done cheaper, if you follow the USA route.  However food poisoning in the USA is huge, and if that was replicated in the UK, the NHS would collapse.  Then BoJo could sell it off to his cousins.

https://www.sustainweb.org/news/feb18_US_foodpoisoning/

Just for fact checking, we have been in deficit for a while.

https://www.poultryworld.net/Meat/Articles/2016/6/UK-less-self-sufficient-for-poultry-2821542W/

No matter how simpleton brexiteers are, there are people out there listening to what industry is saying, and know that a magical unicorn is not going to appear to make things better.

Like Eddie, I am still waiting for someone to tell me how the UK will be better off out of the biggest and most effective trading block, how will the average working class person will be better off, how will we get better trade deals than we do now. 

 

Most of that isn't relevant to what I typed though. I'm not talking about whether the us model is better - I don't care either way as our food production is farm assured under red tractor

I'm not suggesting we can/should be producing more cheaply, its cheap as it is. I was pointing out that if we needed to expand it wouldn't be difficult in that particular sector. If we needed it be more self sufficient we absolutely could be, currently we aren't because we don't need to be.

Edited by Joe.

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15 minutes ago, Joe. said:

Most of that isn't relevant to what I typed though. I'm not talking about whether the us model is better - I don't care either way as our food production is farm assured under red tractor

I'm not suggesting we can/should be producing more cheaply, its cheap as it is. I was pointing out that if we needed to expand it wouldn't be difficult in that particular sector. If we needed it be more self sufficient we absolutely could be, currently we aren't because we don't need to be.

Really??  We import 48% of the food we consume, and that is increasing.  Which particular unicorn is going to plug that gap?  Where is the money going to come from for the increased costs post brexit?

Go on, tell me the solution, try and base it on actual facts.

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2 hours ago, eddie said:

I have deliberately left it open-ended, but let's be a little more specific. Benefits to the 99% of the population who aren't Disaster Capitalists.

Are you familiar with the work of James Buchanan?

Have a read, and tell me what you think. The article refers mainly to America, but you can see the same processes at work in the UK and the EU.

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/meet-the-economist-behind-the-one-percents-stealth-takeover-of-america?fbclid=IwAR371kKh8WDiLgLUZP_QjoxPzrRFhI7O6H7HXcr-90Batd3CRZsr2-JaaS0#disqus_thread

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32 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Really??  We import 48% of the food we consume, and that is increasing.  Which particular unicorn is going to plug that gap?  Where is the money going to come from for the increased costs post brexit?

Go on, tell me the solution, try and base it on actual facts.

Currently (Dec 18), we're 60% self-sufficient. 79% of the remaining 40% is from the UK = 31.6% total from the EU

http://www.aeroponicinvestment.com/news/can-the-uk-ever-be-food-self-sufficient/

 

As the cost of food from the EU increases, it would become more viable to produce food in this country. Alternatively, a reduction in tariffs for countries outside of the EU could see more competitive pricing, thus bringing costs down.

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Posted (edited)

As Hunt and Johnson both try to out do each other on the policies they will introduce as PM. The question being asked is where's the magic money tree to fund them all. 

If they keep on introducing new policies at the speed that they are doing. They won't need one  magic tree they'll need a whole bloody forest of them by the time one of them takes office.

Or maybe they are expecting the arrival of herds unicorns carrying saddlebags stuffed full of money, obtained from all that wonderful new trade, gained after leaving the EU

Edited by 1of4

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Slightly different take on the food safety/ chicken issue:

I have just returned from a trip to the states where one of our number suffered a heart problem and was hospitalised for several days.

Our Tour Director was telling us how she has to provide her company with details of all health issues. In last 10 years roughly 10000 guests, she has seen:

Loads of falls/trips/grazes

5 Heart attacks/issues

1 or 2 stroke/siezure

10/15 broken limbs

2 Renal issues

2 Appendices

12 digestion issues requiring Doctor or Hospital. 

So food poisoning is hardly endemic given the average age on tours like this where guests would be susceptible

 

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1 hour ago, FindernRam said:

Slightly different take on the food safety/ chicken issue:

I have just returned from a trip to the states where one of our number suffered a heart problem and was hospitalised for several days.

Our Tour Director was telling us how she has to provide her company with details of all health issues. In last 10 years roughly 10000 guests, she has seen:

Loads of falls/trips/grazes

5 Heart attacks/issues

1 or 2 stroke/siezure

10/15 broken limbs

2 Renal issues

2 Appendices

12 digestion issues requiring Doctor or Hospital. 

So food poisoning is hardly endemic given the average age on tours like this where guests would be susceptible

 

So the statistics don't concern you. 

More bloody experts, eh? 

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4 hours ago, Joe. said:

Most of that isn't relevant to what I typed though. I'm not talking about whether the us model is better - I don't care either way as our food production is farm assured under red tractor

I'm not suggesting we can/should be producing more cheaply, its cheap as it is. I was pointing out that if we needed to expand it wouldn't be difficult in that particular sector. If we needed it be more self sufficient we absolutely could be, currently we aren't because we don't need to be.

I don't see the collapse of one industry that benefits another as a success. 

And on an unrelated note, there's problems getting the people to work in the industry now. After Brexit I don't foresee expanding production easy in any way. But in a global recession, there may be individual winners but as a country, nobody wins. 

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3 hours ago, McRainy said:

Are you familiar with the work of James Buchanan?

Have a read, and tell me what you think. The article refers mainly to America, but you can see the same processes at work in the UK and the EU.

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/meet-the-economist-behind-the-one-percents-stealth-takeover-of-america?fbclid=IwAR371kKh8WDiLgLUZP_QjoxPzrRFhI7O6H7HXcr-90Batd3CRZsr2-JaaS0#disqus_thread

No being  highly intelligent, I just about  grasp the theories put forward by Buchanan.

The question I need answering is are these theories easier to implement in a multi-state system, like the EU or in a single state, like the UK.

Or are we screwed ether way?

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2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I don't see the collapse of one industry that benefits another as a success. 

And on an unrelated note, there's problems getting the people to work in the industry now. After Brexit I don't foresee expanding production easy in any way. But in a global recession, there may be individual winners but as a country, nobody wins. 

Don't personally think we will see the collapse of one industry. I grow veg so see tremendous staff turnover and well aware of the struggle getting labour , but we will find people, we always manage to.

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13 minutes ago, Joe. said:

Don't personally think we will see the collapse of one industry. I grow veg so see tremendous staff turnover and well aware of the struggle getting labour , but we will find people, we always manage to.

We've always had a steady pool of immigration labour to rely on. Brexit was unashamedly about addressing some of that. Now we have to find a way without it. Labour costs will rise, as Brexit was unashamedly about addressing the stagnation of wage growth. 

Reality is, many industries will turn to automation to alleviate the labour issues. And we should rejoice that mind numbingly boring jobs will be automated. Unfortunately while profit is the sole motivation for anything, we replace people with machines, and find ourselves in the situation where we are producing what nobody has the money to buy. 

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21 hours ago, eddie said:

Please explain to me what actual, real, tangible benefits there will be when we leave the EU. I must either be too thick to understand or my unfeasibly high IQ is causing me to over-analyse things and consequently I am missing the clarity, the certainty that others appear to be blessed with.

I'm serious - enlighten me.

 

The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever.  

 

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6 minutes ago, cstand said:

The most successful countries throughout history are the free market economies who make and control their own rules as and when required. In the fast moving world that we live in today it's more important than ever.  

 

This is just glib soundbite stuff of the kind Boris Johnson might come out with. It doesn't actually mean anything or explain how free trade is to be achieved in a world where we lack any sort of credible agreement on trade with anyone the moment we leave. The day we leave we will be in a situation which is the very antithesis of free trade. How is free trade to be achieved in such circumstances?

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On 25/06/2019 at 23:27, RamNut said:

What do you make ( just out of interest?)

 

Sorry for the tardy reply, only just remembered this question.

I work for a engineering company who specialise in plastic components for the oil and gas industry.

I'm aware this places me somewhere below Trump on the environmental impact scale, but it pays well and I have a reusable water bottle for work.

Also made of plastic, I might add.

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