The Politics Thread 2019

[eddie]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

What is the hard bexit alternative to the irish border solution?

have they ever said?

Thoughts and prayers, I think.

[Leeds Ram]

9 hours ago, Highgate said:

Respectfully disagree there, that would have to be John Hume.  he dedicated his whole political career to trying to bring about an end to the violence in NI.  It was his persistence and courage that finally persuaded Gerry Adams to seek his objective by peaceful political means rather than by violence. Adams then, had the influence to persuade the IRA to end their campaign and the Good Friday Agreement followed.  Hume was harshly criticized for years from all angles for talking to terrorists, yet he never gave up, convinced that dialogue was the only way to bring about peace.  After Hume's breakthrough, others contributed hugely too, including Mowlam (even Blair, who obviously won't be remembered as a peacemaker in other parts of the world).  They were able to persuade unionists to enter into talks with the republicans, but the crucial step was always going to be getting the IRA to cease, first and foremost.  And for that, the man to thank is John Hume.

Even though the sectarian violence has ended (mostly), the sectarian divide still exists and it wouldn't take much for the violence to re-emerge. That's why the Irish/UK border issue is such a delicate issue  Whatever form Brexit eventually does or does not take, hopefully it won't end up jeopardizing the all too fragile peace in Northern Ireland. 

Fair play ? 

[jono]

The point about Ireland is that despite bigotry, and brutal history on both sides there was and is no justification for violence in what were and are broadly similar, democracies. We aren’t talking about Crowmwell, or the 1920’s.

The IRA were persuing  a political aim of a United ireland and were prepared to do great violence to innocents to achieve that. Corbyn gave succour to those who would use those means. He deserves nothing but criticism and scorn for it, no matter how anyone tries to dress it up. .. the IRA were not freedom fighters. They were a brutal disgusting organisation using the worst of methods in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

[eddie]

17 minutes ago, jono said:

The point about Ireland is that despite bigotry, and brutal history on both sides there was and is no justification for violence in what were and are broadly similar, democracies. We aren’t talking about Crowmwell, or the 1920’s.

The IRA were persuing  a political aim of a United ireland and were prepared to do great violence to innocents to achieve that. Corbyn gave succour to those who would use those means. He deserves nothing but criticism and scorn for it, no matter how anyone tries to dress it up. .. the IRA were not freedom fighters. They were a brutal disgusting organisation using the worst of methods in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

There were two sides conducting violence, but selective memory condemns Corbyn alone for speaking to Sinn Fein. might I remind you that the current British government is being propped up (and at the same time, being selectively destroyed) by a party which grew directly from the Protestant Unionist Party, which themselves evolved directly from the Ulster Protestant Action group who worked in association with the UVF and the UDA to wage war on the Catholic communities of Northern Ireland for two decades, and who also carried out the indiscriminate bombings in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974.

Supporting (or conveniently ignoring) one side whilst condemning the other for essentially the same action is hypocrisy.

[AndyinLiverpool]

15 hours ago, HantsRam said:

Balls.

Theresa May alone defined what Brexit meant.

"Brexit means brexit"

"A red white and blue Brexit "

"No deal is better than a bad deal"

 

All her words.

The moment was just after the referendum was won. She still had a parliamentary majority. She could have reached out, tried to build a compromise. 

All her choices that she didn't make. Thought herself mandated...the rest is history. 

Exactly. She wanted the job, she campaigned for the job and made all the choices herself. 

History will damn her and rightly so. 

[Highgate]

41 minutes ago, jono said:

The point about Ireland is that despite bigotry, and brutal history on both sides there was and is no justification for violence in what were and are broadly similar, democracies. We aren’t talking about Crowmwell, or the 1920’s.

The IRA were persuing  a political aim of a United ireland and were prepared to do great violence to innocents to achieve that. Corbyn gave succour to those who would use those means. He deserves nothing but criticism and scorn for it, no matter how anyone tries to dress it up. .. the IRA were not freedom fighters. They were a brutal disgusting organisation using the worst of methods in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

'Brutal history on both sides', while true, doesn't quite give the full picture of the situation in Northern Ireland. It should be remembered that historically NI was a state that clearly discriminated against its Nationalist citizens since its foundation in the 1920s.   'A cold house for Catholics' as the Ulster Unionist David Trimble admitted in 1990s. 

Hence the Northern Ireland civil rights movement in the 1960s, which resulted in a violent government response and a violent Loyalist backlash (when some reforms were announced). From the somewhat understandable largely defensive Republican violence of the 1960s the Provisional IRA emerged, and they took a completely different approach.  Targeting the British state in it's entirety, including innocent civilians (and I would add innocent soldiers and policemen - who were just doing their jobs), their actions were despicable, evil and unforgivable.  Their methods simply cannot be defended by any reasonable person.  I'm sure we agree entirely on that.

However, I would argue that Northern Ireland was in fact the Right Place and the Right Time for some sort of response against the injustices the Nationalist community had suffered in Northern Ireland. A peaceful response (like the Civil Rights movement had been - in which John Hume was a prominent figure incidentally) was timely and entirely justified in my view. 

I'm quite ignorant of Corbyn's contact with Republicans or his motivations to be honest, but I can say that the British government was frequently in secret contact with the IRA as well as having extensive contact with Loyalist paramilitary groups.  

[uttoxram75]

Its on record that Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams were invited to Westminster in 1972 by Ted Heath's Conservative government. Corbyn became an MP in 1983 so any channels of communication between British politicians and the IRA were already well and truly open and in use a decade before Corbyn was in Parliament.

 

[jono]

On 15/06/2019 at 08:54, ariotofmyown said:

Talking to the IRA was an attempt to bring peace and years of violence. It worked. 

There was also a point to the violence of the IRA too, even if it became warped over time.

Trump has zero moral authority and often stirs tensions to play to his uneducated/bigoted base. Not going to Trump's dinner was the right thing to do, especially when the Home Secretary was not invited. Trump's comment about the London Mayor should have excluded him from been invited in the first place. The guy is scum and we should stand up to him.

Actually, he reminds me of a particular uk politician...

I’m not quite sure why you chose to quote me. I lived in Warrington at the time of that particular attrocity - they put a bomb in a metal bin outside Macdonalds. 

Adams was part of that, oh yes he stepped away but no excuses, pure political and human  poison. And let’s be straight Corbyns part of the left wing were happy to “talk” with anyone who is a thorn in the side of the establishment. 

It was in fact the moderators like Blair and Major who made the major strides 

[sage]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Its on record that Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams were invited to Westminster in 1972 by Ted Heath's Conservative government. Corbyn became an MP in 1983 so any channels of communication between British politicians and the IRA were already well and truly open and in use a decade before Corbyn was in Parliament.

 

Dpn't come on here spoiling a story with facts. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

6 hours ago, RamNut said:

What is the hard bexit alternative to the irish border solution?

have they ever said?

Both eire and Britain have said that neither would physically put up hard borders no matter what happens...

Which pretty much turns the e.u  rhetoric into bluster.

So even if it's no deal (and I expect a Canada type deal likeliest) noone is putting up physical borders and both sides will have to quickly put another system to cope in place sharpish.

[eddie]

1 hour ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Both eire and Britain have said that neither would physically put up hard borders no matter what happens...

Which pretty much turns the e.u  rhetoric into bluster.

So even if it's no deal (and I expect a Canada type deal likeliest) noone is putting up physical borders and both sides will have to quickly put another system to cope in place sharpish.

There won't be 'another system' for between 5 and 10 years. There are more than 300 road crossings between NI and the Republic, and the British government have ruled out any form of customs union, therefore there is a bit of a problem.

With a deal, effectively the problem is kicked down the road for another 14 months, but the British government's refusal to accept the negotiated deal means there are now barely 20 weeks until a solution must be found.

So many people are suggesting that the EU are to blame for this system, but I maintain that it is the British government's fault, purely and simply, implementing their nonsensical 'red lines' and then negotiating from that position - but not actually starting those negotiations until they had set the clock running by invoking Article 50. Why should the EU renegotiate anything? Britain leaving the EU will hurt Europe, but it will devastate Britain, and be the direct cause of the complete break-up of the United Kingdom within 10 years.

Boris Johnson's stupifying ignorance of the situation, using the presence of Farage as a threat to the working mechanics of the EU, won't wash, and is a huge obstacle, if any was needed in the first place, to any possible future negotiations, as is his equally crazy assertion that Britain would withhold the £39 billion 'divorce bill' to drive them back to the negotiating table. Welching on a debt is hardly going to incentivise the EU into any future free trade deals - it will have completely the opposite effect, both in our relations with Europe and with any other country in the world. It will send the signal that Britain does not pay its debts, cannot be trusted and we would in all likelihood rip up any deal if it is perceived to be to our advantage. The small point that the EU have disbanded their negotiating team also seems lost on those who are fooling themselves that we can renegotiate anything at all.

Basically, we might as well replace the Union Flag with the Skull and Crossbones.

[Stive Pesley]

16 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Both eire and Britain have said that neither would physically put up hard borders no matter what happens...

Which pretty much turns the e.u  rhetoric into bluster.

You mean turns the bluster about taking back control of our borders and reducing EU immigration into bluster?

You're saying the The UK will continue to have an open border with an EU state. Putting in "another system to cope" - like what exactly?

[Wolfie]

36 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You mean turns the bluster about taking back control of our borders and reducing EU immigration into bluster?

You're saying the The UK will continue to have an open border with an EU state. Putting in "another system to cope" - like what exactly?

Honesty boxes. Lots of them.

We can also ultilise all the old & unused red phone boxes for those pesky immigrants to patiently wait in, to be collected by passing border officials - unless their vehicles happen to be full of cheap booze & fags from over the border.

Sorted.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

48 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

You mean turns the bluster about taking back control of our borders and reducing EU immigration into bluster?

You're saying the The UK will continue to have an open border with an EU state. Putting in "another system to cope" - like what exactly?

So you want me to answer your questions,whilst not answering mine?

Ask someone else 

[AndyinLiverpool]

17 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Both eire and Britain have said that neither would physically put up hard borders no matter what happens...

Which pretty much turns the e.u  rhetoric into bluster.

So even if it's no deal (and I expect a Canada type deal likeliest) noone is putting up physical borders and both sides will have to quickly put another system to cope in place sharpish.

I am not sure I quite understand.

Not in the distant future but the day after Brexit, there will be a land border between us and the EU. On either side of that border different tariffs and immigration regulations will be in force.

How are goods going to be checked for quality, duty owed if there is no border?

How is the flow of people to be controlled? I thought we were at 'breaking point'.

[GboroRam]

2 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

I am not sure I quite understand.

Not in the distant future but the day after Brexit, there will be a land border between us and the EU. On either side of that border different tariffs and immigration regulations will be in force.

How are goods going to be checked for quality, duty owed if there is no border?

How is the flow of people to be controlled? I thought we were at 'breaking point'.

The leprechauns will deal with it. 

[Stive Pesley]

21 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

So you want me to answer your questions,whilst not answering mine?

Ask someone else 

Ok - anyone else want to elaborate on what the "something else" alternative to a hard border in Ireland might be? Kash doesn't know

[GboroRam]

3 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Ok - anyone else want to elaborate on what the "something else" alternative to a hard border in Ireland might be? Kash doesn't know

He does, but because you didn't answer his question, he's not telling. 

So when brexit is a disaster, it'll be your fault. Think about that. 

[ariotofmyown]

10 minutes ago, StivePesley said:

Ok - anyone else want to elaborate on what the "something else" alternative to a hard border in Ireland might be? Kash doesn't know

Maybe the people in Northern Ireland, even the hardcore loyalists, decide they would be better off rejoining the rest of Ireland and the EU rather than remain with our Eton jokers?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

He does, but because you didn't answer his question, he's not telling. 

So when brexit is a disaster, it'll be your fault. Think about that. 

Correct!

Next!